Whale "caravan" water fill.

hoopman wrote:It seems to me these days there are two types of motorhomers. Those that keep their van virtually permanently on site and explore the area on foot / bus etc and those who move their vehicle daily from the site to explore / go places. With the whale filler, I suppose A/S are trying to cater for the former, so these motorhomers just need to re-fill using an aquaroll, without moving their vans. Its each to their own, but we fall into the latter category and would always want conventional filler.
John

I don't agree - the Whale is fine for me and we move on most days. It is at its worst if you don't move the van. After all who wants to clutter up the van with an aquaroll? I have not even found the need to take a collapsible container!

I wonder if there is any point having ASOCs and forums, and AS managers at the AGM. They are clearly neither listening to or consulting their customers, and have not got the technical skills of many of them.

We first experienced the Whale system on our Cotswold. On a Caravan Club site for the initial check and run up all went well. Next a visit to a CL in Norfolk. Excellent site with hard standing and water/waste available on pitch.

Problem experienced was the inability of the Whale submersible pump in the fresh water tank to handle water that has a higher than normal air content. We travelled with the tank near empty, filled up on site in Norfolk and then found the pump would not work. After extensive investigation I made contact with Autosleepers who, whilst very helpful and accommodating, could not resolve the problem. We therefore had to drain the fresh water system; go without centrally heated hot water and use a kettle for the rest of the stay.

Following our return home it appears that the water on the site in Norfolk, being off a local well and highly filtered, had too much air in it for the pump to handle. I communicated this to Autosleepers who spoke to Whale Engineering. The latter agreed that in some circumstances this will occur. The object lesson is that with this relatively new, costly and premium brand product (the Cotswold), you are somewhat limited as to where you camp and the type of water you use!

Good eh? Rufus

Rufus Stone wrote:

Following our return home it appears that the water on the site in Norfolk, being off a local well and highly filtered, had too much air in it for the pump to handle. I communicated this to Autosleepers who spoke to Whale Engineering. The latter agreed that in some circumstances this will occur. The object lesson is that with this relatively new, costly and premium brand product (the Cotswold), you are somewhat limited as to where you camp and the type of water you use!

Good eh? Rufus

No, Not good - but IMHO you are being pretty hard on A/S and Whale.
There must have been a HUGE amount of air in the water that you had taken on board. I have been caravanning/motorhoming since 1972, always with Whale pumps (submersible since electric - the first were foot pumps), and have never experienced this issue. And Whale have always been superb over any contact that I have made with them. I would say that this is a once in a lifetime problem - or was there a problem unrelated to the water supply?

The only time we lost water feed was when the outlet blew off a submersible pump because the clip was not tight enough - but I would hope that your extensive checks would have discovered that. On that van there was no pressure switch as each tap had its own microswitch.

I presume when you turned on the water pump switch on the Sargent panel that the pump ran non-stop (because the pressure switch was not being turned off)? Did ANY water come from the tap when you opened it? You always need to open a tap when you first fill the system and wait for a steady flow or air will be trapped in the pipes preventing pressure building to turn off the pump. And a hot tap must be open for the boiler to fill - no water in there can spell disaster.

If the pump was not pumping water from the taps but was running continuously it can only mean three things -
1. The pump is not sitting in water.
2. The outlet pipe has come off the pump
3. There is an air lock at the pump, which these pumps are designed to avoid, so that the impeller is turning in air (if it is a rotary impeller) or the pistons are pumping air if it is a pumping type rather than impeller. That could mean that the pump is inverted so that the impeller is out of the water - its chamber must be in the water - that is how it primes itself - water pumps cannot pump air, only water.
I have not investigated the pump on our Lancashire but its throb makes it sound like a piston type rather then a rotary impeller. That points to 1 or 2 as the more likely causes.

I would be amazed if the air content in the water was enough to stop the pump from working. My guess would be that the water would need to be around 50% or more air, as though you the pump was trying to pick up water from the bottom of a waterfall - possible if you were taking off water while still filling - but that would settle after a few minutes in the tank and normal operation would recur.

Let us know once you (or the dealer) find the cause.

BTW This thread is principally about filling the tank and the relative merits of an open hole or the Whale Filler, not emptying it.

I ordered a nuevo ek at the nec 2011 and stipulated i needed a conventional water filler, it arrived with both ive not used the whale and all seems ok!

I have read with interest all the comments on this subject and agree that it is not fit for purpose. It is also un-hygienic, the external pump is stored wet the ideal place for bugs to multiply, and it is impossible to keep it clean never mind sterile. The sooner we return to a simple hose with a lockable cap the better.
I have a Broadway and will not buy another Autosleeper with this system

No problem filling with the supplied hose. Connect up go for a natter (It switches off when full). I take a aqua roll for topping up using the supplied small pump. That is if I stay on a site more than a couple of days. I can also leave the aqua roll (With the van reg no printed on) on my pitch if I wander off in the van.

The people at Willersley are able to retro fit an additional water filling system at a cost of £205.48 excl VAT. I will be arranging to have this work done when the weather has improved so that if the present system fails, (it has done so already-solenoid failure) at least I will have a back up system. Conatct Alan Curry (Customer Service Manager) or Mark in the service department.

I hope that this info will be of use to you

I've been following this topic with interest as I was also concerned about the length of time that we waited for our 2011 Cotswold to fill with water. After 30 mins at 1 service point somebody told us that the connection to the van should be tighter and used the cover to lock the connection in place. This did speed things up a bit.
As we now need to disinfect the system before taking the van out to Spain I wonder how this is achieved in a closed system. There was only the flat hose supplied with our van.
thanks for any help.

Barbara K wrote:I've been following this topic with interest as I was also concerned about the length of time that we waited for our 2011 Cotswold to fill with water. After 30 mins at 1 service pint somebody told us that the connection to the van should be tighter and used the cover to lock the connection in place. This did speed things up a bit.
As we now need to disinfect the system before taking the van out to Spain I wonder how this is achieved in a closed system. There was only the flat hose supplied with our van.
thanks for any help.

I agree you do need to use the cover to lock the filler properly into place or it wont fill promptly
You will have an external pump with your van as well just use that and put it into a drum filled with your cleaning solution. Remember to change your pump setting on the control panel to external and then when ready select fill.

Robbie wrote:

Barbara K wrote:I've been following this topic with interest as I was also concerned about the length of time that we waited for our 2011 Cotswold to fill with water. After 30 mins at 1 service pint somebody told us that the connection to the van should be tighter and used the cover to lock the connection in place. This did speed things up a bit.
As we now need to disinfect the system before taking the van out to Spain I wonder how this is achieved in a closed system. There was only the flat hose supplied with our van.
thanks for any help.

I agree you do need to use the cover to lock the filler properly into place or it wont fill promptly
You will have an external pump with your van as well just use that and put it into a drum filled with your cleaning solution. Remember to change your pump setting on the control panel to external and then when ready select fill.

The instructions are very clear on this! Perhaps that is why some people have so much trouble in filling up
We leave our pump setting on "Both" permanently!

Must have got sidetracked with comment from Lyonnesse re external pump being stored wet and breeding ground for bacteria. Haven't tried to fill from a bucket yet but will try doing the disinfection this way before we go away. Does anyone have suggestions for one that doesn't leave after trace in the system. We used to use Chempro in our caravan (the stuff that you use for home brewing)thinking it wouldn't leave a taste but it did.

Have followed the whole debate on water filling methods with interest.
Our 2010 Broadway has the Truma fill system.
I have just timed the first fill of the year (75Ltr) with the Truma hose at 9min 30 secs.
Not bad considering the times I have seen posted for the Whale system.
I see 2 disadvantages with our system - both of which are not major and I can live with.
Firstly there is no automatic shut of valve in the Truma system, so you cannot have the van permanently connected to a hose.
There is an overflow pipe at the top of the tank - which presumably helps the quicker fill time.
Secondly, as with the Whale system, to introduce some steralizing tablets you have to crush and dissolve them in a bucket of water then use the external pump to put the solution into the tank.

We fully disinfect the whole system by using 100ml bleach to a tank full of water, leaving 4 hours, then thoroughly flush the whole system 3 times. We can then use the tank water with steralising tablets even for drinking.
We use our home water filter jug filled from the motorhome kitchen tap and it is fine.
Apart from the cost of 2 litres of bottled water a day, more importantly it saves us carting bottled water from the supermarket every day.
Of course, if on a site for more than a few days, we do have to top up the tank with a bucket and the external pump, but that is the same for any system.

Truma Fill

In most cases where a van was supplied new with a Truma fill system it is also supplied with a fill hose that includes a pressure reducer. This Truma device is so that caravans that do not have a fitted tank or internal pump can be connected (via the reducer) direct to mains water without damaging the internal plumbing.

On Auto Sleeper motorhomes the Truma connection system is only used so that a small bore pipe can be used to fill the freshwater tank. The worst that can happen if the mains water pressure is too high is for the hose connector to blow off the van. I discovered last year that some vans had been supplied with hoses without the pressure reducer so (on the basis that pressure can always be controlled by adjusting the mains tap) I removed mine. The van now fills much quicker from the hose and I haven't had any problems with the hose staying connected.

When filling using a Truma external pump and water container there are three pump switching options:

Pump set to internal and use fill control - fill control has to be operated after every minute - a nuisance.

Pump set to external - as soon as you plug the pump connector into the van the pump operates and does so until either the connector is removed or the water level gauge indicates 100%. When using this option the internal pump is disabled which can be embarrassing if you forget that's the reason its not working!!

Pump set to both. Just plug the external pump into the van and it operates until the tank is full. I use this option but have also included an on/off switch in the pump connection housing so that I can switch the pump off whilst refilling the water container. I've recently noticed a slight blue coloured tracking mark between the van connector electrical contacts. This will have been caused by a minute 'leakage' current between the two terminals that have been permanently energised. I intend in the future (but haven't remembered yet) to leave the selection to internal when at home and then switch to both for the duration of any trip.

Water Quality

This is very much a matter of personal preference.

Over the years we have always been happy to drink water from the tank and have never suffered any problems with taste or illness. That said in the last three vans we have had a filter installed in the cold water connection to the kitchen cold tap as a 'fail safe'

Although I have travelled extensively in the UK and Europe I only use 'camping' designated taps for the water, I have a 'fresh water only' container and a 'blue' hose. We do use the van throughout the year so its never more than three or four weeks between the system being cycled but if the van is not going to be used for a couple of weeks I drain the fresh water and leave the drain tap and all internal taps open so apart from the inevitable 'low' points in the pipework the system is dry. When the van is being used, the target is to have a full tank as much as possible. Basically what I think I am achieving is to not allow water to stagnate or for bacteria to grow in the damp environment of a partially filled tank.

Peter

Peter,
Interesting points.
I had tried setting the pump to external rather than the 1 min. refill option and it did not work (i.e. no power to the water inlet terminals).
Having now read you post I have just tried again and find it works but only if you have the 'tap on' pressed on the control unit also.
I to have modified my external pump lead to include an on/off rocker switch, so the external pump option shall be the one for me from now on.

Re water filtration. As I said, we take our domestic jug and a few spare Tesco filters which we change every couple of weeks.
I would be interested to know where you got the in-line filter and how often you have to clean/change that?

We were on CC site at Tewkesbury last week and noticed a new Nuevo at the motorhome service point filling up with water, using, I assume, the Whale set-up.
The chap had gone into his van and sat down for a cuppa while it was filling.

In the time it took him to fill up, I'd walked over to the nearest tap with my watering can a few times and put enough into our tank to last us 4 days.

Progress?

Regarding fill times and the water pump not seeming to prime the system (ie no water from taps) I encountered a problem last year just after we got our new Motorhome, The water system was drained and as we were about to set of the next day I connected up our whale system and began filling the water tank. Once the tank had filled rightly i proceeded to get water up to the taps, doing the hot water first and turned the tap on, the pump was whirring away for a couple of mins and no water hmmmmmmm problem, tried a few things but to cut a long story short, our pump was working ie spinning but even though it was new it was weak and not capable of pumping the head of water from the tank to the tap outlet. So one to watch out for is a pump that still sounds like its working but weak and cant pump the water through the taps.

inspiredron wrote:Just to get some balance in this thread:

When we ordered our new Lancashire I was very concerned about the Whale water filling arrangements. Having used it this season I really like it. The only downside is that when you drive to the tap the habitation electrics are switched of automatically. The Whale filler won't allow water in unless it is powered so you have to remember to turn on the habitation electrics again once the engine is off. The first time we tried to fill the water at a site in Luxembourg it took us half an hour before we realised what was wrong!
We were supplied with a small pump on an alternative hose and that will pump 10 litres in from a bucket or jerry can extremely quickly if you can't easily get to the tap.
So my verdict is a 10/10 for the Whale system. It works for me. And both the cassette hose and the pump version pop easily in the bucket for storage.  I found a great bucket that just fits the outside wet locker in Poundland.

I totally agree, I have an easy to store 10 litre container with a lid (£6 at a show) which I use which I use with the external pump when on rally sites etc. I would not be without it now and it is definitely more hygienic than using an open watering can with a conventional filler. I have seen Nuevos with both systems, albeit on opposite sides of the van. Also if on a French aire where there is a conventional fixed hose (or using a small length of my own hose) I run the water straight into the container at the same time as using the pump to take it from the container to the van. It is just a matter of filling the container at roughly the same speed as the pump. Speed of filling has never been a problem for me but I know it is for some people. I hope AS do not remove this system as I consider it superior to a conventional filler although having both would be ideal.

Driftwood6 wrote:
Also if on a French aire where there is a conventional fixed hose (or using a small length of my own hose) I run the water straight into the container at the same time as using the pump to take it from the container to the van. It is just a matter of filling the container at roughly the same speed as the pump.

No offence meant, but at risk of sounding as if I'm taking the wee wee, I find this quite risible.

With a standard Fiamma filler you put the hose straight in the hole. No faffing around with containers, submersible pumps and adjusting the fill rate.

I'll cheerfully admit that the Whale systems work, and work very well - but personally I don't go on holiday to faff around with water containers, trolleys, pumps, twiddling taps to regulate flow, moving the van to fill with water etc..

I begin to think a lot of A/S owners are either masochists or closet caravanners!

Dave


P.S. Each to his own of course, but watching someone fill with a Whale is almost as amusing as watching caravanners get set up. Having a motorhome is all about being bone idle - well, for me it is!!

Bucking the trend but I love my whale system . I just use the hose to fill from a tap and job done. Top ups (which are rare as we drive off site quite regularly) are also easy.
Agree the 'hole' system is 'simpler' but I don't have any issues with mine. Until it goes wrong 

Hi, we have both conventional and whale systems on our van ,needless to say the whale has never ever been used!! Totally agree with Gromits comments!!  Regards    Paul

Gromit wrote:

Driftwood6 wrote:
Also if on a French aire where there is a conventional fixed hose (or using a small length of my own hose) I run the water straight into the container at the same time as using the pump to take it from the container to the van. It is just a matter of filling the container at roughly the same speed as the pump.

No offence meant, but at risk of sounding as if I'm taking the wee wee, I find this quite risible.

With a standard Fiamma filler you put the hose straight in the hole. No faffing around with containers, submersible pumps and adjusting the fill rate.

I'll cheerfully admit that the Whale systems work, and work very well - but personally I don't go on holiday to faff around with water containers, trolleys, pumps, twiddling taps to regulate flow, moving the van to fill with water etc..

I begin to think a lot of A/S owners are either masochists or closet caravanners!

Dave


P.S. Each to his own of course, but watching someone fill with a Whale is almost as amusing as watching caravanners get set up. Having a motorhome is all about being bone idle - well, for me it is!!

I am just pointing out that the whale system does not rule out filling from a hose if you want to - i.e. there is a simple work-around. However obviously I would normally use the supplied whale hose straight into the tank. Whilst filling I can get on with doing something else rather than standing there like a bored petrol pump attendant. I don't believe I have a pressure reducer in mine, or if I have it has never caused me concern about how long it takes to fill up. Also when the tank is full it switches off automatically so I don't go through that awkward moment of either a) trying to reach the tap whilst trying to avoid getting soaked by the water still coming out of the hose  or b) having to involve a second family member to come and turn off the tap when the tank is full or c) leaving a wet mess after the water floods the area around the van or where ever else I point the hose whilst I go and turn off the tap! Just proving how there are two sides to every story. As for caravanning I gave that up in the last century and have owned from new an Eldis, a Rapido, a Hymer and an Autocruise since then and still prefer the Auto-sleeper system although I may change my mind the first time I need to buy a new pump! I admit I had to look up the meaning of risible (limited education and all that) "deserving to be laughed at, very silly or unreasonable" Now that is not very nice is it? 

I thought "risible" was a moderately reserved way of expressing disbelief at the faffing about forced upon you by that system - not a dig at you personally Driftwood.

I can see why you would do it like that, but it seems amazing to me that one has to fill up one container in order simultaneously to empty it into another container using a submersible pump.   Mr Heath Robinson would have loved it!

Just as an aside, have you ever used one of those French bornes where you put in your two euros and the water starts to flow immediately - and there isn't a tap to turn it off!! Fortunately they are not very common, but we managed to find one. Our hose wasn't even in the filler hole and the water came rushing out like a fireman's hose, snaking around and drenching me and several innocent French bystanders. Fortunately it was very hot and they saw the funny side of it, and after a rapid retreat they stood round pointing and laughing while I finally caught the hose and filled the tank.

Dave

Gromit wrote:I thought "risible" was a moderately reserved way of expressing disbelief at the faffing about forced upon you by that system - not a dig at you personally Driftwood.

I can see why you would do it like that, but it seems amazing to me that one has to fill up one container in order simultaneously to empty it into another container using a submersible pump.   Mr Heath Robinson would have loved it!

Just as an aside, have you ever used one of those French bornes where you put in your two euros and the water starts to flow immediately - and there isn't a tap to turn it off!! Fortunately they are not very common, but we managed to find one. Our hose wasn't even in the filler hole and the water came rushing out like a fireman's hose, snaking around and drenching me and several innocent French bystanders. Fortunately it was very hot and they saw the funny side of it, and after a rapid retreat they stood round pointing and laughing while I finally caught the hose and filled the tank.

Dave

Hee Hee. Yes I have used them but of course with the whale system you don't get wet!!! I should add that as case 'D" on my list above.