Call for campervans to pay in Scotland?

Whilst I am not against wild camping we have done very little in Scotland, preferring sites, cls' etc.
I don't think some of these people realise how much revenue motorhomers bring into the areas local shops, cafes, pubs, filling stations etc.

On the other hand is the revenue worth the environmental damage that comes with it, especially for the majority of residents who don't benefit in any direct way and have to live with the intrusion and its effects 365 days of the year. Let's face it many have full fuel tanks, fridges and food cupboards and depart with them empty. Some leave their packaging spread over the landscape. Wardens charging for wild camping would bring in revenue to provide local services which might compensate residents in a small way for the annual invasion.

I would have no problem at all in buying a vignette, paying a tourist tax or similar much as you do in Switzerland to allow me to wild camp in Scotland. Every area of land is looked after by someone so it is only right we pay something towards using it and not just freeload. It may also deter some of the less responsible travellers. 
A few years ago on a Scottish tour pretty much all wild camping we spent one night on Skye in an isolated and truly wonderful spot. Obviously left nothing, either where we stayed or by way as a contribution to the local economy, guess which part makes you feel guilty!

if there were more simple aire type parking areas (no ehu or showers, just a waste point, recycling point, CCEP) where a fair price could be paid in return for these basic services, im sure they would be used...
they are by the thousand in other european countries.
however, this is the uk....we generally hate MHs and their owners, seen as rich freeloaders when, in many cases its the exact opposite.
id happily use aires at £8-£10 a night....i dont need anyone paying for the implementation of loads of infrastucture that most dont need...
so, a simple place to park overnight....say £8....waste/CCEP etc incl perhaps a tenner...
many folk dont want a typical CAMC site (which actually only gives you a hookup over what many need) and then look for £25-£30 for the privelige..
MH are vegicles to be used anywhere, thats why they have engines and pay VED....they are not caravans to be dropped at a 'proper caravan site'...
however, all totally irrelevant as far as UK is concerned...

What a motorhome can do and what a government, national, devolved or local, or indeed a landowner, will allow its owners to do, are not necessarily one and the same thing. I can run naked down our village street, but I'm not allowed to do it. Just because they can overnight anywhere, doesn't mean they should be allowed to, if the greater good is served by them not being allowed.

And there are loads of 6 van sites which don't offer a full monty service, indeed there are plenty of CMC sites without toilet or washing/ showering facilities.

And yes UK Aires would be a good thing, but apart from extensive grounds, shower block and maybe lack of electricity they have to have the same groundwork, fresh water, waste and sewage systems as a 'proper' caravan site.

Indeed most of the problems appear to be caused by smaller campervan owners, whose vans have no showering or toilet facilities and who really need the organised site facilities but choose not to use them cos it isn't 'cool'.

Just for a bit of balance, from the same newspaper. I wonder how the letter writer would consider legislating for this?  

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Andy, i agree....I was just saying that campervans/MH are designed to be self sufficient vehicles and dont need services on a daily basis.
for many, the emptying of the toilet will be the first 'service' required, we can manage around 6 days (incl showering) without needing fresh water or to dump the waste water...
so, even 'aires' without services (again there are thousands over there) are worth the provision for a small charge....a bit of a return for the community with next to no set up costs..
a few wider bays at the back of a car park...not really that difficult, no groundworks and couldnt be cheaper to provide...
however, as above, this being the UK that (the concept) is a step too far..

Askit wrote:Just for a bit of balance, from the same newspaper. I wonder how the letter writer would consider legislating for this?  

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It's the same cohort of people. It's just that some use camping and some use vans. They tend to be younger, tend to attend festivals, where littering, poor sanitation and stimulant use almost seems to be encouraged. They despise 'organisation', have little concept of civic responsibility, think everything that isn't corporate is free and that mum will always clear up after them. They believe the hype about freedom and wild camping, not realising that engaging in it, in ever increasing numbers, actually destroys the very thing they were wanting. Think Hotel California.

steamdrivenandy wrote:

Askit wrote:Just for a bit of balance, from the same newspaper. I wonder how the letter writer would consider legislating for this?  

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It's the same cohort of people. It's just that some use camping and some use vans. They tend to be younger, tend to attend festivals, where littering, poor sanitation and stimulant use almost seems to be encouraged. They despise 'organisation', have little concept of civic responsibility, think everything that isn't corporate is free and that mum will always clear up after them. They believe the hype about freedom and wild camping, not realising that engaging in it, in ever increasing numbers, actually destroys the very thing they were wanting. Think Hotel California.

As far as the tent camping goes, no idea of the ages of the folk involved because nobody has been "apprehended". Those irresponsibly  wild camping in vehicles is something different, the mentality might be similar but the age group is almost certainly of the more "mature" variety.

Not necessarily Tony. The number of VW Transpoter based campervan conversions has mushroomed in recent years and they're generally in the hands of 20 to 35 year olds. Very few have proper toilet facilities, some have a porta potty, many are self converted and would turn a safety engineers hair white.

Wow! Large judgements and assumptions and some prejudicial attitudes being made from some here regarding the younger age groups and people who like camp away from commercialised sites 

steamdrivenandy wrote:Not necessarily Tony. The number of VW Transpoter based campervan conversions has mushroomed in recent years and they're generally in the hands of 20 to 35 year olds. Very few have proper toilet facilities, some have a porta potty, many are self converted and would turn a safety engineers hair white.

Andy, I can't argue with your logic. As Lancy has said, there are a lot of assumptions being made because there is very little "hard" evidence of who is doing what (no pun intended). There is a lot of finger pointing and claims of "it wasn't us guv, honest". There is, however, some evidence. There were photos posted here of between 30 and 50 wild campers occupying a car park in Pitlochry last January and they were all motorhomes, not campervans.

Lancy wrote:Wow! Large judgements and assumptions and some prejudicial attitudes being made from some here regarding the younger age groups and people who like camp away from commercialised sites 

are you surprised?
when 'away' we regularly just pull up at a nice looking place to spend the night...aires or other recognised overnighting places...we dont need water/waste for many days...stroll into town, have lunch or dinner, spend the day on the beach or exploring on the bikes.
if we like what we find, we might stay longer....if its that good we might book into a site...if weve done all we want to, we move on the next morning and see what we find.
we also do long stays, for many weeks over winter, and in the UK we use THS sites and CL/CS....so a good mix.
folk with vans dont always want what sites think they offer....many times less is (much, much) more...the appeal of a non site is obvious to some but beyond comprenension to 'club site regulars'...
i dont have a VW...(nice though)...and am far from being 25:up!:

As has been said earlier in the thread, it is a very small minority that behave in a manner that is unacceptable, but that colours the general public's view of all who engage in motor homing. It is therefore in every motorhomer's interest that their behaviour is exemplary to try and counteract the bad behaviour of the few.

Such behaviour appears to have broken out more virulently since lockdown, witness the utter mess left after illegal raves, which surely aren't attended by more mature folk.

I do wonder if the proliferation of hired motorhomes has contributed to the problem, as well as the use of vans without facilities onboard. Of course there are plenty of totally responsible hirers and there are committed owners of beautifully turned out small VW campers who wouldn't dream of despising the countryside.

But promote staying anywhere you like, at no charge, using what is almost a works van with a mattress in the back and a certain section of society will take advantage and not care what damage or despoiling they do. Responsible society has to balance the greater good.

We've overnighted many times in the Basque region of France, mostly around the Biarritz area, both in official aires and beachside parking areas. The council policy there seem to be that the collection of fees, usually 10 euros, is the job of patrolling police in their marked vehicles. They issue you with a receipt which you put in your window, can come knocking at any time after 7pm, and you don't argue as they're usually armed... Maybe we could learn a lesson in this country..
Al.

a good post AL....the last French Aire we were in prior to returning home this spring had collection of fees by two armed policemen...
weve had collection by agents, honesty boxes, free nights, token, credit card and barrier etc, etc...
always happy to pay .....a little when only a parking space is provided...and always happy to use the town facilities, shops, cafes etc...
the continentals have a different outlook to us....providing signed parking for the huge motorhoming community is pretty much a given, its an investment..
a 'MH, please park here' sign not only makes you feel more welcome (and perhaps more likely to spend a bit in town) but also stops the need to search around for another place which might be less desirable for locals.

weve even had free parking for 48 hrs complete with included EHU at Vauban's Chateau in Blaye..as I said, different mentality.

I've been following the adventures of several full time vaners on YouTube. They have had a tough time lately, constantly moved on by locals and the police. Some of them have woke up to piles of litter piled up round their vans left probably by locals trying to give them a bad name, and to make things even worse, photographs taken of it and put on Facebook. This doesn't excuse the selfish few, but there are some very nasty vindictive people about.

Dave

bolero boy wrote:a good post AL....the last French Aire we were in prior to returning home this spring had collection of fees by two armed policemen...
weve had collection by agents, honesty boxes, free nights, token, credit card and barrier etc, etc...
always happy to pay .....a little when only a parking space is provided...and always happy to use the town facilities, shops, cafes etc...
the continentals have a different outlook to us....providing signed parking for the huge motorhoming community is pretty much a given, its an investment..
a 'MH, please park here' sign not only makes you feel more welcome (and perhaps more likely to spend a bit in town) but also stops the need to search around for another place which might be less desirable for locals.

weve even had free parking for 48 hrs complete with included EHU at Vauban's Chateau in Blaye..as I said, different mentality.

I think we're in danger of letting our own enthusiasm move the discussion away from the original point. This is not about folk that use their vans off grid and behave responsibly, but the few who behave like louts.I suspect that even if every hamlet, village and town in the UK had aires, such people would still despoil the countryside.

Apart from the issues of trying to find such encampments to try and obtain some charge or other, there's a difficulty that our county based police services won't want to become collectors of local camping charges and any other form of collection would require national legislation.

So there are major difficulties in trying to bring such activity under control, which doesn't bode well for the future.

there are 'major difficulties' in policing any undesirable activity, we (the law) has to decide how badly they want to police it...
obviously, we treat some of these activities more seriously than others.
i agree, even with a plentiful provision of facilities there would still be those who would abuse, but i dont think this is a huge majority.
there are many MH ers who would love to make use of local overnight parking areas and pay (a sensible rate) for the privilege.....whats needed though is to come down hard on those that dont toe the line, but (as ever) its easier to set a blanket ban (and hurt the majority) than to root out those responsible...
as above, it aint gonna happen here.
ill just go where im far more welcome....and give them my custom.

Sorry to say this I do volunteer work for the local Police force, from what I have seen over the last five years you would be better asking the local paperboy to collect the money. As to having the time, inclination or budget to regularly police campers the chances are zero down here anyway. Guess Scotland being such a vast area is little different

groundhog wrote:Sorry to say this I do volunteer work for the local Police force, from what I have seen over the last five years you would be better asking the local paperboy to collect the money. As to having the time, inclination or budget to regularly police campers the chances are zero down here anyway. Guess Scotland being such a vast area is little different

Didn't you know GH. It's what the 20,000 extra police the government has promised will be doing.

steamdrivenandy wrote:

groundhog wrote:Sorry to say this I do volunteer work for the local Police force, from what I have seen over the last five years you would be better asking the local paperboy to collect the money. As to having the time, inclination or budget to regularly police campers the chances are zero down here anyway. Guess Scotland being such a vast area is little different

Didn't you know GH. It's what the 20,000 extra police the government has promised will be doing.

I know you were joking, but the 20,000 extra bobbies doesn't replace the ones axed by Teresa May. If they didn't have time to chase campers before she came along they still won't even after Dominic (sorry, Boris) has replaced most of them.......