Re: Cotswold gas tank

by Cymro Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:29 pm

bolero boy wrote:There you go Cymro

Ah! Didn't realize that the post was a link until I read Gromit's post.

If the text of the link is in colour, I'm afraid I can't see it (colourblind).

Having now opend it, it is indeed a solution, but as PaulMold says, I can't honestly see my wife permitting me to fit one of them in the middle of the van!

Thanks for finding it and posting!
Cymro

by Guest Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:44 pm

Gromit wrote:
bolero boy wrote:dave, it really isn't very difficult....

When you decide to leave the site, visit an LPG station prior to your cuppa.

. . . a 'proper' way of getting gas into the vehicle.....via the van regulator seems a good idea to me....and to Gaslow, it seems.
Wish I was as clever as you Chris.

I don't find it at all difficult, but you seem to be confused - probably because you are used to using a twin refillable system on a Carthago and you have no experience of an A/S underslung tank system!

Firstly, would you really want to be travelling with no gas on board, probably in a foreign country where it might be difficult to find any open LPG stations? I certainly wouldn't, and I suspect I am not alone.

Is the Gaslow hose a "proper" way of getting gas into an A/S system when it has been specifically designed for use with twin refillable bottles? I quite agree that it would work, BUT at the expense of emptying the underslung tank first! I don't understand why you don't consider that to be an inconvenience, when it's so easily avoidable. (I presume you did understand my earlier post? )

Sorry, but you seem totally fixated on the Gaslow hose as the ideal solution, but it simply isn't practical for the needs of many A/S owners with an underslung tank.

No need to be 'smart' dave, just tying to help...
I'm not confused, thanks, though perhaps you are....
You won't be out of gas you'll have the remainder of the supplementary bottle with you which you can back feed (again) via the hose or the BBQ point for your cuppa.
It's no different to a Gaslow user who connects as I described...the refillable will empty first, followed by the supplementary bottle...
Either way, finding more gas isn't difficult, there are repsol or Cepsa stations on every corner...and literally hundreds of LPG stations in Spain alone
however, if you're still struggling (do I put a smiley now, like you, to make it a friendly poke....? Whistle1

) the choices are pretty straight forward...even for folk that aren't (apparently, quote) 'as clever as I am'.... smile!

If this issue is likely to be an ongoing issue for users then.....
Take more gas...larger underslung tank? bring supplementary bottle in Gaslow gas tight box...
Use less gas...make use of ehu if avaiable and cost effective..
Refill tank when necessary
purchase bottle locally and use the Gaslow hose with said bottle or cobble together something with the BBQ point and additional on bottle regulator....

It's your (and others') choice....obviously a compromise that might be needed with a smallish underslung tank.
sorry if you didn't understand my previous post:smile!:

by Guest Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:08 pm

Cymro wrote:
bolero boy wrote:There you go Cymro
Ah! Didn't realize that the post was a link until I read Gromit's post.

If the text of the link is in colour, I'm afraid I can't see it (colourblind).

Having now opend it, it is indeed a solution, but as PaulMold says, I can't honestly see my wife permitting me to fit one of them in the middle of the van!

Thanks for finding it and posting!

Absolutely no problem....they come in three sizes, some may have room in an underbed seat box for one of the smaller ones....
As I said in my post above, it really depends if this is likely to become a problem....only each user will know this and what they can do about it.
Rgds.

by Gromit Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:34 pm

bolero boy wrote:No need to be 'smart' dave, just tying to help...
I'm not confused, thanks, though perhaps you are....
You won't be out of gas you'll have the remainder of the supplementary bottle with you which you can back feed (again) via the hose or the BBQ point for your cuppa.
It's no different to a Gaslow user who connects as I described...the refillable will empty first, followed by the supplementary bottle...
Either way, finding more gas isn't difficult, there are repsol or Cepsa stations on every corner...and literally hundreds of LPG stations in Spain alone
however, if you're still struggling (do I put a smiley now, like you, to make it a friendly poke....?) the choices are pretty straight forward...even for folk that aren't (apparently, quote) 'as clever as I am'....

If this issue is likely to be an ongoing issue for users then.....
Take more gas...larger underslung tank? bring supplementary bottle in Gaslow gas tight box...
Use less gas...make use of ehu if avaiable and cost effective..
Refill tank when necessary
purchase bottle locally and use the Gaslow hose with said bottle or cobble together something with the BBQ point and additional on bottle regulator....

It's your (and others') choice....obviously a compromise that might be needed with a smallish underslung tank.
sorry if you didn't understand my previous post:smile!:

Hi Chris.
My smart beats your patronising by a country mile. snigger

I probably am confused, but not about the use of the alternative methods of using an external bottle. What's not to understand?

What does confuse me is your apparent willingness to endure needless hassle. What you suggest for having a cuppa en route is just not going to happen. Dragging the gas bottle out of the secure Gaslow locker (where do I put it in a small van?) then lugging it out into the pouring rain (Mr Sod never sleeps! shrugg

) then connect it all up, just to have a cuppa. Even caravanners don't have to put up with that much hassle!! Whistle1

Civil question here. Why are you so fixated on the Gaslow hose, and unwilling to accept that there might be a better way? That does confuse me, although I have to admire the raft of cunning fixes you come up with to answer every objection.

I don't think there's much point in continuing. We are not going to fall out over it, but we differ on the most fundamental issue.

Whether or not it's sensible or acceptable to put yourself in a situation where you have to travel with an empty underslung tank!

You don't face that dilemma with a twin Gaslow system, but owners of recent A/S vans will if they use a Gaslow hose.

by Guest Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:50 pm

If the tank runs out on site there are only a few options....Go and fill it.....being the simplest....but if this can't/won't be done, for whatever reason, then there is only one other choice....
Get more gas into the tank....
I have no preference for Gaslow but don't agree that screwing a Gaslow hose into a filler hole is any more hassle than setting up a hose/regulator into a a BBQ point.
When, exactly, does the user decide it's time to do one of these things....
When it runs out..
When the indicator says low...
In advance because it's likely the gas won't last...
Either way, it doesn't matter...
I agree no one is really going to get the 2nd bottle out just for a cuppa...unless needing one just out side the site gate...
No, what they (well, I) would do would be to check out mylpg.eu and fill at the first LPG station en route, which will likely be withing 20 miles...well before that needed cuppa.....so don't fret.
The larger towns also have multiple LPG stations...so plenty of choice.
Why do you think this would be a hassle? Isn't this the normal process when a refillable tank is low/empty?
BTW...what would you do with the partially empty gas bottle?
If you decide to use it via then a point (or gas filler) it's likely (certain) it will still have gas in it come leaving time (unless somehow switching back to the refillable when the bottle empties...?) ....give it back I guess..if you can't carry it.?
Either way, good luck with the decision....hope you don't run out.

by Gromit Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:05 pm

bolero boy wrote:Much easier to respond within quotes this time.

If the tank runs out on site there are only a few options....Go and fill it.....being the simplest....but if this can't/won't be done, for whatever reason, then there is only one other choice....
Get more gas into the tank.... (Agreed - more or less. "Get more gas into the system" would be more accurate.)

I don't agree that screwing a Gaslow hose into a filler hole is any more hassle than setting up a hose/regulator into a a BBQ point. (I quite agree when on site, but by then the underslung tank is empty. THAT is the crucial point I can't come to terms with. That brings hassle and potential problems that are easily avoided, while still getting gas into the system)

When, exactly, does the user decide it's time to do one of these things....
When it runs out..
When the indicator says low...
In advance because it's likely the gas won't last...
Either way, it doesn't matter...
I agree no one is really going to get the 2nd bottle out....unless needing a cuppa just out side the site gate...
No, what they (well, I) would do would be to check out mylpg.eu and fill at the first LPG station en route, which will likely be withing 20 miles...
The larger towns have multiple LPG stations....

Why do you find this such a hassle? (I don't, but I don't want to find myself in a situation where I can't find an open LPG station. We might travel at night, and our French brethren are brilliant at lightning strikes. Three years ago we were caught in one, and had all our tanks not been kept at least half full, we would have been deep in the merde - along with lots of others.)
BTW...what would you do with the patially empty gas bottle?
If you decide to use it via then a point (or gas filler) it's likely (certain) it will still have gas in it come leaving time....give it back I guess...?

Either way, good luck with the decision.... (No decision to make as I won't be doing it, but like yourself I feel an obligation to help others who may not have much knowledge or experience.)

by Wightman Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:11 pm

Gromit wrote:
Wightman wrote:Hi Brent
Easier to reply within this quote.

Think the snow has addled my poor little brain cells on this (Couldn't possibly comment! )

Thank you Gromit - you are such a gentleman

So you get a full gas bottle and connect to BBQ outlet - is there no one way valve to prevent gas being "blown" back in? Blown back in where? I don't understand what you mean. It will be going in at low pressure (thanks to a bottle top regulator) so the van's gas system will behave exactly as before. Simply a matter of low pressure gas being fed in at a different point in the system.

What I was assuming (wrongly) was if the gas is meant to come outwards could there not be a serious problem in trying to push it back the other way - which is why I thought there is a one way valve to allow gas out but not in - if that makes sense!!!

Then you say to turn off the outlet from the main tank so if you have to do this surely it means it's a very dangerous move? No danger, just inconvenience if you don't, because the underslung tank will completely empty - and the purpose of the exercise (as I would want to use it) is to save whatever LPG you have left in the underslung for use when en route, and use from the external bottle while you are static on site.

Don't really get this part - why would the underslung tank empty (although I thought it had already emptied which is why this discussion started!!) When Chris fitted our new tank I asked if we could keep the 20litre as factory fitted but was advised against it - although can't remember why!!

Then the general opinion is not to use the gaslow adapter mentioned above unless the main tank is completely empty - so why does this not fill the empty tank as it's connected to the input? It can't because the gas is drawn from the external bottle as a gas, and at low pressure - not as a liquid. The only way to fill the empty underslung tank is to use liquid gas under pressure from a pump.

That's cleared that problem thanks

Best bet is have a bigger tank fitted as we've done Wish we could, but Chris Wise of Autogas2000 investigated, and there's not enough room for a tank of a worthwhile size

Is your unit not built on the same chassis as our Broadway then?

or "pop" along to the gas supplier - it sounds a lot safer!! No safer, but often a lot easier than all the faffing about!

Couldn't agree more

Brent Thawing IoW

Hope that helps. Thawing here, but very slowly.

Yes it most certainly has - very many thanks

Brent virtually thawed IoW

by Liam Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:28 pm

Now I am really confused - who's answering what and who's writing to who?
I though it was frowned upon within this forum to use different coloured fonts?

by Gromit Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:40 pm

Liam wrote:Now I am really confused - who's answering what and who's writing to who?
I though it was frowned upon within this forum to use different coloured fonts?

Not when it considerably aids clarity I would have thought. Difficult to respond to multiple questions within a post without making the reply very cumbersome.
If I'm wrong I've no doubt I shall get my wrist slapped by Admin! rolleyes

by Peter Brown Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:45 pm

As am I Liam.

Although not an uncommon practice, the manufactures of gas outlets for BBQs unequivocally state that gas must not be fed back through them under any circumstances.

With respect to feeding high pressure gas from a cylinder via the on board tank, as long as all of the connections will stand the pressure, that can be done via a full on board tank as it will be only 80% full of liquid and the fill point is at the top. What the chemistry of mixing pure propane or butane with blended auto gas is, I know not.

by Guest Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:53 pm

AFAIK, Auto gas is a mixture (of varying percentages) depending on where you buy it....so it is already a mixture...
The 30mb bulkhead regulator is designed to cope with propane, butane, or a mixture thereof....Autogas.

by Wightman Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:56 pm

Liam wrote:Now I am really confused - who's answering what and who's writing to who?
I though it was frowned upon within this forum to use different coloured fonts?

Sorry if I've broken the rule book Liam

The black was my original post, the blue was Gromit's reply and the violet is my reply to Gromit

Hope that clears it up for you and I'll try not to do it again!! winks

Brent IoW

by Wightman Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:01 pm

Peter Brown wrote:Although not an uncommon practice, the manufactures of gas outlets for BBQs unequivocally state that gas must not be fed back through them under any circumstances.

Hi Peter

Thanks for that as I had that in the back of my mine which was what I was trying to say but thought they fitted a one-way valve to comply!!!

Best wishes

Brent IoW

by Gromit Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:11 pm

Peter Brown wrote:Although not an uncommon practice, the manufactures of gas outlets for BBQs unequivocally state that gas must not be fed back through them under any circumstances.

Worth pointing out the caveat Peter (Thanks) although they never explain why, which always aids comprehension!.

Peter Brown wrote:With respect to feeding high pressure gas from a cylinder via the on board tank, as long as all of the connections will stand the pressure, that can be done via a full on board tank as it will be only 80% full of liquid and the fill point is at the top. What the chemistry of mixing pure propane or butane with blended auto gas is, I know not.

Hmmmm????

Unless I have misunderstood their none-too-clear description scratch head

, not according to Gaslow's own website - assuming you want to use the gas from an external bottle first, and save what's in the underslung tank. (Quoted below. Source: HERE)

"The gas will be drawn from the reserve cylinder, through one of the refillable cylinders to the regulator.
Note that it will not transfer liquid gas into the refillable cylinder, so gas from this cylinder will only be used if the refillable is empty."

"Refillable" in the case currently under discussion can only refer to the underslung tank.

Clear as mud, eh? Imprecise use of the word "this".

by Cymro Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:12 pm

Wightman wrote:The black was my original post, the blue was Gromit's reply and the violet is my reply to Gromit

Hope that clears it up for you and I'll try not to do it again!!

Not if you're colourblind! A curse which is getting more significant these days with the proliferation of different coloured (or colour-change) LEDs as all sorts of indicators.

I was always OK years ago with roadmen waving green and red flags to regulate traffic: if you went through on a red, he'd wave it wildly at you as you went past! But now, with all sorts of elctronic devices using tiny colour-change LEDs, it's hopeless! And with print, if someone has used one colour on a different colour background, I simply cannot see the text! Blue is generally OK, but otherwise a pleas for black and white!

Cymro

by Gromit Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:22 pm

Yes, I used red at first, but changed it when I remembered that blue is much easier for those with colour vision problems.

It's an awkward one. Trying to respond as clearly as possible, without multiple copy-and-paste quotes from the questioning text, is sometimes quite difficult.

Bold and/or italics would presumably be far preferable.

by MikeJJ Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:13 am

Has anyone sourced a 30mbar regulator with a POL connection to fit directly onto a gas cylinder ie not a bulkhead mounting? The only 30mbar ones I can find are GOK and they need to have a POL adaptor fitted on the end which I suppose would be OK?

by Guest Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:30 am

If you're using a POL fitting then it will be a propane bottle that you're using so why not just use a normal 37mb propane on-bottle regulator?
The bulkhead 30mb ones are just a 'compromise' regulator that allows for propane and butane to be fed through the same reg.
I assume you are looking to back feed a propane bottle into the BBQ point and bypass the bulkhead regulator?

by MikeJJ Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:42 am

Chris, yes I was thinking about what I would need to do that and had made the assumption that I would need to match the LPG 30mbar pressure as from the Truma regulator on the underslung gas tank. With the gas tank isolated at the valve on the tank I suppose the only impact will be on the equipment inside the m/h eg Combi6, fridge & cooker and they should be able to accommodate a wider range of pressure without any concerns?

I am also still concerned about Peter's comment that one shouldn't reverse flow through BBQ point? Any further guidance on that?

by Guest Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:53 am

Not specifically as I don't have an underslung tank nor a BBQ point, lol...
However, I do have a refillable system (a single 11kg Gaslow) and another spare pigtail for adding any other type of bottle I fancy....
So, I can feed in LPG (with whichever 'mix' of propane/butane is the norm in the country I buy it) or a Propane bottle or a butane one all via the same 30mb bulkhead regulator.
However, you raise a good point re: the compatibility of the appliances with regulator pressures...
No doubt this is all available from manufacturers but there will be many disclaimers for sure....including the one that says these devices won't run well from LPG.... smile!

Ps Mike, how will you carry your additional bottle....the question was asked earlier in the thread....thanks.

by MikeJJ Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:11 am

Thanks for that.

It is solely that I have 2 completely full propane cylinders from my previous m/h and thought I could beneficially use them. Before travelling away I tend to precool the fridge/freezer (24hrs) and warm the m/h before travelling so would use the gas from the cylinders when at home, (well at least for the moment).

by Guest Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:16 am

You could flog 'em on eBay.... smile!

by Gromit Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:22 am

Hi Mike

Different pressures from the regulators you are considering will make no significant difference to the appliances in the van. A 37 mbar propane bottle top regulator will deliver gas at a minimal 0.105 lbs/sq inch higher pressure than your 30 mbar bulkhead mounted one. (If you want to be quite certain, get a 28 mbar butane regulator with an adaptor, as you mentioned. The adaptor makes no difference - it's only a connector after all.)

As for Peter's caveat, he's quite correct to draw attention to it when gas issues are being discussed on a public forum, but nowhere can I find any reason given for the warning. It will be a "tracks covering" exercise to guard against anyone stupid enough to connect a cylinder directly into the BBQ outlet fitting without using a bottle top regulator. (And there are some around!! Whistle1

)

If you think about it, does it make any difference where in a fully interconnected gas system you introduce low pressure gas? The underslung tank introduces it at what is nominally the start of the system, except that it probably isn't the start as such - it will be at the nearest and most convenient point in the "circuit".

Having said all that, I am not a gas engineer . . . but nor are the hundreds of people on long term campsite stays who feed in gas through their BBQ points with no problem.

Your decision of course.

P.S. A good friend (sadly deceased now) was a fully qualified engineer, and he didn't like the bulkhead mounted regulators because they were (and may still be to an extent) susceptible to failure due to the notorious "oily residue" problem. So he took his off and used bottle top regulators on his propane bottles for several years, with no ill effects at all.

by MikeJJ Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:20 pm

Well the parts arrived and I have tested running the m/h from the propane gas cylinder through the BBQ point.

Delighted to say that hob/oven, fridge/freezer & Truma heating all worked as expected and foretold. All the flames seemed to be much the same with the 37mbar regulator as the tank 30mbar regulator.

Thanks guys for the suggestion. Now I know that if I have a utilities outage to the house I can at least decamp to the m/h for a few days or longer.

by Gromit Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:30 pm

Good result then Mike, and thanks for the feedback. It's always useful for others with a similar need or problem.