Bourton LPG Tank 20L How long will it last?

• 
  
  
  
  
• 
  
• 
  

Re: Bourton LPG Tank 20L How long will it last?

 by Gromit Today at 5:40 pm
Hi Spospe

You said, "As far as I can see, the tank is horizontal to the body of the van (2014 Warwick Duo) and at right angles to the direction of travel. 105 degrees sounds very odd (or is this an amusing joke?)"


"No joke.

This image shows the angle at which the valve box should "droop". The tank has been photographed at the same angle as when fitted. The feet would be bolted to the underside of the van floor. http://www.gasit.co.uk/index.php?_a=product&product_id=505

There's a description with this gadget which explains in greater detail. http://www.gasit.co.uk/index.php?_a=product&product_id=313

Your tank may need to be rotated to the correct angle. You should be able to see if it's more or less correct by looking at the position of the valve box, as explained in the second link.

Dave."


Being a completely non-technical person I find this text baffling, can you please confirm please that the tank does NOT have to "droop" at an angle of 105deg towards the ground, which of course would considerably reduce the ground clearance, but rather only needs to be fixed at the correct position.

I'm afraid that the thorny question of how long the gas will last is much like the old "how long is a piece of string" -horses for courses.

Dave.

You missed the crucial point I fear.

"This image shows the angle at which the valve box should "droop"."

If you could look at the tank end on, the valve box should not be at 3.00 o'clock (or 9.00 o'clock when viewed from the other end!) but it should be at around 4.00 o'clock. (105 degrees to the vertical)

In their huge and infinite wisdom, some of the fitters (who clearly did not RTFM ) carefully rotated the tank so the valve box was horizontal to the tank axis, i.e. at 3.00 o'clock. This is quite wrong and potentially dangerous, as it interferes with the 80% shut off valve and could allow the tank to over fill. It also renders the gauge pretty useless as it is no longer in the vertical plane, so its float can't operate freely.

There is a picture somewhere on the web which shows this clearly, but I can't find it. Will have another look.

Hope this is clearer.

Dave


P.S. This image shows it fairly clearly.
[url=https://i351.photobucket.com/albums/q456/N_T_G/Gas Tank Mod/DSCF0339.jpg]https://2img.net/h/i351.photobucket.com/albums/q456/N_T_G/Gas%20Tank%20Mod/DSCF0339.jpg[/url]

I know there is another recent thread relating to issues on new vans, but it can't just be me who finds this particular one - wrongly fitted gas tanks - quite frightening.
And again it is the double whammy of poor (lack of training?) workmanship followed up by bad (no?) quality control.
Never mind, here's my £50/60/70 grand, I accept there might be major problems which I'll sort out myself.
Appalling!

Many thanks Gromit, I get it now, though 15deg is a relatively small angle so I am amazed that it can make such a difference to the safety or otherwise of an installation! In my last van I had a Gaslow setup which of course were vertical bottles so am puzzled as to how they could regulate the volume to 80% of full without the droop.
As you say RTFQ!

Dave.

Thanks Gromit (Dave), the links you provided make the angle story clearer and I can now confirm that my tank seems to be fitted correctly (but the gauge still is not much help in measuring how much gas there is in the tank).

The tank is is 25 litres.  80 percent = 20 litres
The gauge is not much use
The angle of the tank should be relative to the ground not the van which may may be slightly nose down if it has air suspension

pjkxpjkx wrote:The angle of the tank should be relative to the ground not the van which may may be slightly nose down if it has air suspension

Hi

Now you are getting me confused!

Assuming what you say is correct and important, that would mean you should never use the gas when the van is parked on a fore and aft slope?? 

But surely it wouldn't make any difference to either the gauge or the 80% cut-off valve, because they are both in the centre (lengthwise) of the tank, so a slight longitudinal slope would make no significant difference. (It might make for unwelcome intimacy if using the double bed - but that's too much information! )

Earlier references to the angle of the tank have all concerned the rotational angle, and I've never seen any reference to what you mention. Have you discovered a new instruction for tank fitters to ignore??

Dave

You may have misunderstood me.  I never mentioned never using the gas.  I was referring to the rotational angle.  Forget it...

-mojo- wrote:

However, the reason why it's more expensive to keep it warm is that you get constant energy loss to the environment when keeping it warm. You get no energy losses to the surroundings while it is cold (energy loss by radiation is proportional to the fourth power of the difference in temperature between an object and its surroundings). The hotter you choose to keep it while not in use, the greater your energy losses will be.

Its not that simple. You need to factor in the heat absorption and transmission co-efficient's of the surroundings and how much energy the heated water must give to the surroundings taking into account the ambient temperature. Simply, the 'energy losses' are actually heating sources that save fuel that would have to be used for say background heating.

I grant you there may not be that much difference in fuel use/cost but the big factor in favour of leaving it an all night in the winter (apart from stopping the van and boiler freezing) is that I don't have to get up early to switch it on.

Peter #1

Peter Brown wrote: . . . the big factor in favour of leaving it an all night in the winter (apart from stopping the van and boiler freezing) is that I don't have to get up early to switch it on.

Peter #1

Can't argue with impeccable logic like that Peter! (My emphasis in quote.)

We idle sods are not so stupid, eh?

Dave


P.S. Back to the original question, do the Truma Combi 6 water/space heaters use a lot of gas, compared to the earlier more basic and separate models we all used to have? I don't see why they should (initially perhaps, but not over time) but I was told they are much more gas hungry by someone who should know!!

Peter Brown wrote:
Its not that simple.

Of course not - anyone who has had to study thermodynamics as an essential (and not entirely welcome, in my case) part of their education will know that it's not simple.

However, the facts that you talk about (e.g. the loss of heat from the water heater acting as a space heater for the van/house, and the convenience of not having to get up early to turn the heating on) are compensatory factors. Some of them are useful, other not so much - for example the "space heater" side effect may be good in winter but not of much benefit in the middle of summer.

But the original question was "which is cheaper?" and not "which is more convenient?, so the underlying fact remains: all other things being equal, it is cheaper to heat water when you need it, and more expensive in energy terms to keep the hot water any warmer than ambient temperature when you don't. If it helps at all in convincing you, I can look it up when I'm next in the local library and provide a reference to the Which? article that covers the subject.

I should add that I personally almost never heat the water "as I need it". I value the convenience of being able to turn the tap on and get hot water straight away more than I value the small amount extra that it costs me in additional energy costs...

How long will it last???

I just went to top up our tank which was showing half empty (four LED lights) and it took 7.8 litres.

Maybe the gauge is not too far out after all, but I can't understand how we used so much gas when we have spent only three days off hook-up, and used the heater on gas for no more than three or four hours altogether. It was chilly weather so I doubt if the fridge would have used much, and we are well practiced at "motorhome showers" so we didn't use a lot of hot water. Other than that we only used gas for boiling the kettle during a total van usage of four weeks.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to be a lot more gas than we used in the previous Nuevo.

Dave

I took Winnie back to the A/S factory last year. One of the things done by Mark's super team was to reposition the gas tank from the factory's original setting of the control box at horizontal (90 deg) to something well beyond 105 deg.
The gauge on the dashboard (very inaccurate and NOT a measuring device - merely an indicator) shows all lights on when the filling station's pump stops - full. However, when this gauge shows empty - only the red light on - I have found from experience the tank is about half full and I can squeeze only about 10 litres of gas in.
I've chickened out of continuing to consume gas. I don't fancy ear-ache from Mrs stoneb.
I do wonder how the gauge would react if I applied a 105 deg setting indicator and the tank had to be reset (again) assuming it is wrongly setup (it certainly looks way out to my eye) and how much gas I could refill with. I might try it some day.
Incidentally, when Winnie first came to me, I was supplied with a manufacturers certificate, dated, serialised etc and stating the tank's total capacity to be 25 litres and the filling capacity at 80% being 20 litres max.

gef wrote:  i wish it was possible to use the barby point and a bottle as an  emergency it would make life a lot easier

Why isn't it possible?

There must be a regulator of the emergency bottle of course, but that being so I can't see that it matters where in the system you feed in the gas.

We've seen it a lot on the less enticing French campsites with lots of permanent (and often very scruffy) residents.

Dave

Claytaa wrote:Peter, we have never found gas filling sites problematic, in France they are really easy to find, more difficult in Spain. No idea about Germany will find out in September.

When in doubt a motorway service station will normally have gas.  (But Spanish ones do not)  Also I find that their equipment is better maintained.

In the winter with no ehu, and the heater set at around 16 degrees overnight, we fill up once a week and get in around 11-12 litres . We tend to travel everyday so we aren't sitting around with the heater ( Truma 4e) on all day. In the summer, we tend to have the water heater on the timer, 3 hours in the morning, 4 or more in the evening, 2 showers a day ( 2 of us, so one each!) fridge and cooker on gas, and we top up every two weeks, getting around 9 to 10 litres in. Pretty economical I would think.

Gromit wrote:

gef wrote:  i wish it was possible to use the barby point and a bottle as an  emergency it would make life a lot easier

Why isn't it possible?

There must be a regulator of the emergency bottle of course, but that being so I can't see that it matters where in the system you feed in the gas.

We've seen it a lot on the less enticing French campsites with lots of permanent (and often very scruffy) residents.

Dave

Gaslow do a fitting to feed gas from an external tank into the gas fill point. No regulator required as this is on the HP side and so the normal van regulator will work.
My understanding is that in practice the van tank empties and then gas comes from the external bottle.

As a rough guide I base on about 0.5 litres/day of propane

Going to Spain in January, are the fittings at the pumps the same as the UK?

No the fittings are different, you will need this in Spain.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUTOGAS-EURO-LPG-FILLPOINT-ADAPTER-FOR-SPAIN-GAS-IT-GASLOW-01-4305-/262010481865?hash=item3d010aacc9


This in the rest of Europe.



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-Autogas-Adaptor-Euro-Cup-to-UK-Bayonet-adapter-GAS-IT-Gaslow-01-4300-/252061264197?hash=item3ab005a945


Which ever adapter you use you just screw it into your fill point then connect Spanish, European filler.

John.

There is one difference.  No adaptors except the Spanish one have a valve in them.  The result is that when you disconnect the filler point there is a rather exciting emission of liquid propane. (as in UK) Your hands will be a reasonable distance from this and so no problem.  The spanish adaptors do have such a valve and so there is no emission of liquid propane.  BUT when you unscrew the adaptor propane from the adaptor to the non-return valve in the tank is given off.  You are holding the adaptor and it will get very cold and you are sprayed with liquid propane.  It is better to take a pair of heavy leather gardening gloves to stop frostbite.  
Why have the spanish complicated it.  I think that the reason is that if you do not need an adaptor but have the correct filling point on the vehicle you will never get the gas/liquid emission.  There will be less pollution and it will be safer.
If you tour europe there are four fittings:  Netherlands/ UK; French; Italian and Spanish so the full set is three adaptors.  The Italian and Spanish ones are both called "euro fittings" but they are very different.

gef wrote:i also found a problem with my broadway when filling up from empty it did not reach the full mark and i thought i would have to go to the factory.  i then by chance filled up at a bp station and found that the tank was full acording to the gauge which had not happened before.  i wish it was possible to use the barby point and a bottle as an  emergency it would make life a lot easier

No need to use the barbie point though I understand it's possible??? If not I'm sure someone will be along to.......you all know the rest  

See attached, works well with the 2.7Kg Gaslow bottle which is ideal for emergencies in Northern Europe where LPG outlets are scarce.
 
http://www.gaslowdirect.com/Gaslow-Reserve-Cylinder-Connection-Hose 

Ignore the Gaslow set up in the picture the attachment is the same. Gaslow also provide 21.7LH attachments for this hose and for most types of bottle in Europe, we have found this most useful in Norway and Sweden.

PB addition
The link takes you to the home page - go into that pages search box and enter 01-4500, the search will take you to the hose

Is it feasible to fit a gasit 12kg bottle in tandem with the underfloor bottle and keep it full but off, until you run out and then have a reserve. It would fill at the same time as the big tank. It depends on how much under floor storage you have with a vented area to put it in.

Since my last post done some sums from our use, and to answer the question we use 0.496 Ltrs /day so on that basis your tank would last 40 nights