Frozen Duetto

by ralph.clingan Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:09 pm

Hello,

I've just joined the forum and am hoping to find some technical help with a little (self inflicted) problem.

I forgot to drain down the camper!

Today I remembered that I hadn't drained it so I ventured out in the cold to evaluate the damage.

Sure enough it was frozen solid. I couldn't even move the taps. I've had a small heater on all day and the water
is draining from the valve by the water heater. I can't see any leaks at the moment but the pump is as dead as a Dodo
no sound comes from it although the light under the switch comes on.

I can't find the water pump - please, does anyone know where it is an this model?

Ralph

by brodco Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:39 pm

Hi

Ouch!!

Lets hope there isn’t too much damage.

ralph.clingan wrote:I can't find the water pump - please, does anyone know where it is an this model?Ralph

You don’t say what year but if it’s a mk5, look in the cupboard under the cooker , remove the trim at the back and you have access to pump.

Brod.

PS. Sorry just read your intro. The van is a 2003 model but the pump is probably in a similar location.

by ralph.clingan Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:58 pm

Hello Brod and thanks for replying.

I don't know what Mk it is but the cupboard that you mentioned has all the breakers in it and on the back is the water heater switch.

The van is silver coloured with blue uphostery

I had found a reference to that possible location on the net but it seems unlikely with all that electric kit in there.

The centre cupboard under the sink has a removable back. I took that off and had a look behind because the bottom section was less deep than the top. Silly me - all I found was the wheel arch!

Could it be behind the fridge? or the other possibility which I am leaning towards at the moment is that it's hiding in
the fresh water tank.

Thanks again

Ralph

by Paulmold Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:06 pm

Has the cupboard you mention got a false floor, that's where the pump is on Symphony van conversions, I would think the Duetto is similar.

by ralph.clingan Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:36 pm

Hello Paul

Thanks for the reply.

No I'm sure it hasn't. I just went out and had a look. The cupboard under the cooker has three electric breaker switches mounted on the back along with the switch for the water heater. The main gas pipe comes up through the left of the bottom so its impossible to remove it without major dismantling. The bottom cupboard under the sink is full of wheel arch.

The early Duettos were a bit longer than mine so maybe they've had to hide it somewhere else on my model.

I've looked through the handbook and haven't been able to find any reference to the pump location.

Ralph

by brodco Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:07 pm

Hi

ralph.clingan wrote:The early Duettos were a bit longer than mine so maybe they've had to hide it somewhere else on my model.

Just looked at the 2003 model on tinternet!

I see what you mean. In the earlier model the cupboard between the cooker and sink is wider and the electrics are in the bottom of that, leaving room for the pump under the cooker.

Have you tried removing the bench seat? On mine there are a couple of inspection hatches and you can get access to the water heater and a reasonable section of the water pipe. You may get a clue from the way the pipes run.

If the pump is in tank there must be some wires running to it and that could give you another clue (not to be confused with the water level sensor wiring).

Brod.

by Spospe Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:28 pm

A 2003 Duetto will be on a MK6 Transit and I have no personal experience of this specific model.

I have had both MK5 and MK7 Transit based Duettos and on the MK7 version the pump was accessed from the outside of the van, by removing the lower fridge vent (very easy to do); as far as I know the MK6 and the MK7 Duettos were very similar and this is where I would start looking.

by ralph.clingan Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:32 pm

Hello Brod,

Thanks for responding.

Under my bench seat close to the cooker is a covered compartment containing a diesel blown air heater, the water heater and battery charger. There is also the water drain tap which just routes the water to the road beneath.

The water pipes definitely head towards the back of the van behind the cooker

I'll check the wiring to the fresh water tank in the morning.

Thanks again

Ralph

by ralph.clingan Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:44 pm

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by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Today at 8:28 pm

A 2003 Duetto will be on a MK6 Transit and I have no personal experience of this specific model.

I have had both MK5 and MK7 Transit based Duettos and on the MK7 version the pump was accessed from the outside of the van, by removing the lower fridge vent (very easy to do); as far as I know the MK6 and the MK7 Duettos were very similar and this is where I would start looking.

Thanks Spospe.

I reckon you've found it!. I'll check tomorrow.

Thanks again

Ralph

by Dutto Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:45 am

Hi there,

First things first ....

CUT OFF ALL THE 12V ELECTRICITY!

DON'T DO ANYTHING ELSE!

.... until you are sure that NOTHING in the van is still frozen.

In the meantime ....

.... DO NOT try and open any taps or drain valves ....

.... DO NOT operate the toilet.

The reason for this is that you can cause damage to the taps, pumps, valves etc by trying to operate them when there is only a small amount of ice in the system.

When you are SURE that EVERYTHING is defrosted re-fill the fresh-water tank and go through the usual bleeding process.

If everything works okay then drain down everything and breathe a sigh of relief because you have got away with it THIS TIME!

If you discover leaks or things don't work please get back to us with what is happening now that the van is totally de-frosted.

Hope this helps. allthumbz

Best regards,
drinksallround

by Jaytee Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:59 am

Trust Dutto, he is giving invaluable advice here up!

by rose49f Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:28 am

What Dutto said is the best advice. Sit back and wait for the thaw.

by ralph.clingan Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:06 pm

I put a fan heater in the van overnight.

This morning I tried the pump and it worked. The noise it made came from behind the fridge so Spospe was right. Any way the pump was working now it had thawed and I had no need to get to it. I think where the pump is on my van would make it particularly susceptible to freezing.

I put some water in the fresh water tank, closed the drain valve and flushed through the cold water at the sink. wash basin and shower. I then checked the hot water at all three points and again there were no problems. I switched on the hot water immersion heater waited half an hour and warm water came through.

I think I have been extremely fortunate to avoid any damage to the plumbing. I often forget things nowadays but am sure that next year I will not forget to drain the van!

Thanks to everyone who responded with their thoughts and excellent advice and a happy and healthy 2015 to you all

by rose49f Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:24 pm

Hope you've drained it all again as we're going to have more frosts.
think_smiley_46

by Dutto Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:14 pm

Hi there,

BRILLIANT up!

but you probably have no idea how lucky you are!! Whistle1

I blew out TWO water heaters in caravans in Scotland; both times with sudden frosts that hit without anything more ominous from the Weather Forecasters than "It may reach zero in the Scottish glens!" which it obviously did!! tap_fingers

I now live in Skegness, a place not noted for freezing temperatures; but the frost hasn't lifted until 3pm for the last three days and has been back by 10pm! Luckily "Petal" was drained down back in October!!

Presuming that you have now drained everything down, blown through all the pipes and left all the valves and taps open; you may now sit back and enjoy whatever winter chooses to throw at you. allthumbz

With regard to the fan-heater I strongly recommend that you change it out for an oil-filled type or something like a Dimplex Chico which works on the same principle but is much lighter.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

Best regards,
drinksallround

by Flying High Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:54 pm

ralph.clingan wrote:I put a fan heater in the van overnight.

This morning I tried the pump and it worked. The noise it made came from behind the fridge so Spospe was right. Any way the pump was working now it had thawed and I had no need to get to it. I think where the pump is on my van would make it particularly susceptible to freezing.

I put some water in the fresh water tank, closed the drain valve and flushed through the cold water at the sink. wash basin and shower. I then checked the hot water at all three points and again there were no problems. I switched on the hot water immersion heater waited half an hour and warm water came through.

I think I have been extremely fortunate to avoid any damage to the plumbing. I often forget things nowadays but am sure that next year I will not forget to drain the van!

Thanks to everyone who responded with their thoughts and excellent advice and a happy and healthy 2015 to you all

Just a rider to the fan heater overnight, I would have let it thaw out very slowly with very little heat otherwise the pipes will swell and burst.
Best thing to use is an 80watt greenhouse cylindrical heater on a piece of wood on the floor with the brackets of course. I use a thermostatically controlled 13 amp plug in unit set at 5 degrees left in the van all winter.
At that setting I get no condensation in the van and it keeps it from freezing. I still drain the system in the winter as well.

Hope that helps

Best regards, Mike courtesy

by duetto Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:23 pm

How cold was it, the coldest we have camped in was -7 never had any frozen water problems.

by Spospe Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:37 pm

duetto wrote:How cold was it, the coldest we have camped in was -7 never had any frozen water problems.

Depends on the van, the degree of heating used, the wind speed and its direction. In our Duetto on the MK5 Transit, at the North Cape of Norway, we had the water pipes under the van freeze up at about minus 3C, but the wind was strong at over 10 metres per second (about 20 mph). At this time, we were in the van with the heating running and the draught from around the fridge was horrible (thanks to A-S not sealing it properly into the van).

by Dave 418 Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:45 am

The first time we took our van out was in March. We were alongside a river in North Norfolk. I thought it was a bit chilly during the night but it wasn't as bad as being in a tent so thought nothing of it. We turned off the heater, we were feeling brave. Next morning the water from the taps was mushy and full of bits of ice. Everything seemed ok so we put the heater on and carried on . shrugg

Over the next couple of weeks the pump kept running at odd times. Unable to find any easy leaks I found the pump, thanks Dutto, . The filter on the side had a crack in it and the casing was damp around the base. We replaced the filter and eventually for peace of mind replaced the pump. It was the original I think
Frozen vans are not a big issue if you are aware of it. The problems come if you get caught out. We have a water container from the £ shop for our days out in the winter so we can make brews and flush the toilet. We wont re-fill the tank until we go away overnight and then be watchful for clear frosty nights. cold

by Jaytee Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:27 pm

Is it primarily the van conversions that suffer freezing with one off frosts? I find it takes a few days of very low nighttime temperatures before we get any problems.

by mikemelson Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:17 pm

I'd like to add something to this, got a Symbol, same layout.

In my A/S handbook under water pump, it advises to drain the pump filter if freezing conditions prevail.

They must be joking! has anyone attempted this? I can just about see it, let alone get to it.

I did actually fit a new Shurflo pump last year which was extremely difficult, I managed it with the aid of a dentist's mirror.

I certainly wouldn't like to get to the filter every time a cold snap appeared, it seems I would have to pull the pump forward to empty the filter.

The threat is real though, couple of years ago, my brother-in -law drained his van prior to putting it in storage, following spring, big water problems.

Turned out he didn't drain the pump filter & it had frozen up over the winter!

by -mojo- Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:51 pm

Agreed - this is true of many A-S conversions - it was also true of the Flair that I owned until recently. The pump in that was at the bottom of the wardrobe, well below floor level, so I never routinely went so far as to physically disconnect and drain it.

However, as Dutto has pointed out, you don't actually have to completely drain either the pump or the filter to protect it. In most cases, just running the pump for a while after the tank has emptied will leave enough air space for the ice formed from any remaining water to "grow" into. The partially drained filter and pump in my van must have frozen up dozens of times in the eight years I owned it, but both survived Ok.

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