Broadway winter water dump valve question

We've always had manual dump valves on previous vans and would be grateful if someone would confirm our understanding of the automatic one we have on the Broadway.

In very cold weather we should turn off the pump. This would mean that, if the dump valve opens we would only lose the water from the heater itself ( Truma 8) and from the surrounding pipes. We would not lose the water from the water tank. Is this correct ?

We have the winterisation kit fitted but it seems that the tank heaters take quite a lot of current and, on an aire, this would flatten the battery if left on overnight. We will also be conserving gas so, unless it is really bitter, would not normally leave the air heating on overnight.

Thanks

Q

It might help invite the answers you want if you clarify the question. I believe you are asking about what will happen when you are camping in the van in freezing weather and therefore assume that if you are not camping the van will be completely drained of water?

Peter

You understanding of the dump valve is correct as you have described so you don't lose tank water.
I cannot comment on the winterisation kit, we dont have one, but we would leave the air heating on lowest setting overnight and have found this uses very little gas

Peter Brown wrote:It might help invite the answers you want if you clarify the question.  I believe you are asking about what will happen when you are camping in the van in freezing weather and therefore assume that if you are not camping the van will be completely drained of water?

Peter

Indeed.  The van is always drained when we are not in it; winter or summer.

This is about  winter nights on aires when we can't run the winterisation kit heaters or the van heater but we are in the van.

Q

I am assuming that your van is fitted with the latest Truma Combi boiler  - in which case I would suggest you might consider fitting a Truma heating element (part No. 700070-01) - about £30. This is an accessory which is connected to the boiler and inserted into the Frost control (dump valve) and warms it up to about 10C - but only when the combi is switched on! So with the boiler on a low temp setting this should overcoming the likely hood of the inadvertent water dump in the middle of the night - it also helps to shorten the period before refill irrespective of the temperature in the installation compartment. I don't know what the current requirements are but it cant be a lot. 
Liam

Thank you. Very reassuring. It would be too embarrassing , not to mention inconvenient, to wake up to a 105 litre pool round our wheels on an aire !

Liam; we'd not heard of the heating element you mention. Too late for this year but we will certainly look into it.  

Thanks again

Q

From our experience; (our dump valve is in the same compartment as the combi, not sure if all are) when we have been using ours in frosty weather and even if we dont leave the heating on at night, the residual heat from the water in the tank et al never allows the compartment to get cold enough to open the valve. We had quite a sharp frost here last night and even though we havnt been using the van for the last four days when I just checked the valve has not opened.  It probably will tonight though due cold soak.
PS havnt drained down as we use it very reguarly and if a harsh cold snap is forcast we leave a small oil radiator heater on to keep the damp out.

Jaytee, I think you will find that all dump valves have to be co-located near to the combi boiler for obvious safety reasons, however you will also note that there are some large ventilation holes in the same area (at least there are in my van) of the floor through which some very cold wind blows! So the chances of the temperature dropping to 3 c (trigger point for dump vale operation) in such circumstances is highly likely. 

I have been experimenting at home with our system for the last few weeks just to find our when it dumps. Firstly, I fitted the heating element mentioned above (its very easy to fit) and then left the heating on at about 12 c setting (I find it uses very little gas at this setting) and it all worked well through several days and some very frosty nights (-3 c on one occasion)  with no problems. 
I then switched the boiler off and in the last few days whilst we had those very cold winds (ambient was still above zero)  I found that the valve had operated overnight. 

So I am now content that the heating element does its job and I feel reasonable secure that in future if we are camping during a cold spell we should not loose our water - providing the boiler is left on at a low setting!!

Liam

We have the same dump valve and heater in our Worcester and they are next to each other. The coldest night we have experienced (so far) is -8 degrees. The water pump (in the water tank which is outside the insulated bodywork) froze, but the dump valve did not trigger because we had kept the heating running. We did not have a working pump for most of the next day, until the weather warmed up, but we had bottles of water in the van.

We don't normally intend to be in places that cold!

DickandJanGlover wrote:We have the same dump valve and heater in our Worcester and they are next to each other. The coldest night we have experienced (so far) is -8 degrees. The water pump (in the water tank which is outside the insulated bodywork) froze, but the dump valve did not trigger because we had kept the heating running. We did not have a working pump for most of the next day, until the weather warmed up, but we had bottles of water in the van.

We don't normally intend to be in places that cold!

Where were you at -8? Sounds great

Somewhere near Salisbury! Caravan club driver training.

Thanks ! I'd not latched on to the fact that we have a submersible pump in this van. One more thing to worry about when it freezes...

Q

Having only picked our Stanton on Saturday, I'm possibly the most recently-qualified, new "kid" on the block; avid reader of instruction manuals and listener-to of A-S hand-over sessions on the forum (as an aside, we have been doing this "motorised-camping" thing since the late 70s, so we know which way is up... maybe).
It seems to me that :
The "Winterisation kit" is only useful if you are plugged in, otherwise it will drain the battery pretty quickly.
The Truma dump valve is effective, if the locker it is in is empty: we picked up the new van after a -3C overnight temp and the button had popped out, water gone. Had the locker been full of "stuff" that might not have happened but...  would it have mattered; because the Truma would have been at the same temperature as all that stuff (and water). That said, I'm struggling to see the value of the £30 "frost-valve heater". Does anyone ever drive around in cold weather with an empty locker and water in the system; does anyone leave water in the system, with empty lockers, when they are not using the van... in Winter (or any other season)? 
I'm guessing that -8 degrees in Salisbury was not this year... so far... we are heading down that way next week, so expect Alpine conditions.
The only water in our van will be in 5ltr drinking bottles, the Caravan Club "facilities" have their uses. 

Cheers,
Pete.

On our Lancashire the boiler is under the wardrobe while the dump valve is in the adjacent locker. However it is some distance from the wardrobe wall with the leisure battery between the two.

Thanks all. We do expect bitter weather and will not be on hook up with, probably, a limited water supply so we are keen to ensure we lose as little as possible. Almost 50 years ago, when we started this camping bug, things were so much simpler. Each new van brings new gadgets and " improvements" that add more layers of complexity to the simple lifestyle !

Q

Liam wrote:With regard to the £30 cost (£27.03 in fact) for the Frost Control unit - I justified it on the following basis;-


1. The boiler and safety valve in my van are sited in a self contained, very well ventilated compartment - with nothing near to it (other than water pipes) to provide any secondary insulation of any sort, so IMHO a likely scenario for the dreaded water dump at an inconvenient time - particularly as we go camping in early and late season.
Therefore if the boiler is on then I have reasonable assurance that the system is secure!


2. In the event of an inadvertent trigger you cannot reset the valve until the core temperature of it reaches 7deg (that's what the manual states) - so if the ambient air temperature is not very high then you might be struggling to close the valve. The solution - hair dryer - this requires mains power!!  Or the above mentioned  Truma Frost Control Unit which preheats the Drain Valve once the boiler is switched on thus allowing for a faster manual reset.


Regarding severe weather operation - well we have penciled in Norway in the Winter to see the Northern Lights - but that's in the future and I will need to do a bit more planning for that - so any tips or suggestions would be welcome. Suffice to say that in such conditions EHU would be an essential requirement!


Liam

Hi Liam, having spent four winters in Arctic Norway I have some experience and like you I am currently in the early planning stages of a trip taking Mrs BB to see the 'lights' too. I would say that that alone is worth the trip/experience. As bird watchers we also get the chance to see Arctic species that are rare further South.
The AS 'winterisation' kit is not, in my opinion, sufficient for braving Arctic conditions on it's own. I already have plans to further winterise my 'new' Broadway after delivery in April. There are a number of posts somewhere on the forum concerning previous attempts to winterise the piping from the tank to the body of the vehicle. My belief is that the Tank Blankets fitted work only when on EHU. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to correct me if that isn't the case. My planning includes the addition of at least two 12v heater elements (sourced from CAK tanks) into the fresh water tank which can be used on the move avoiding freezing caused by the severe windchill at any speed. Access to fresh water is limited apart from at fuel stations and a number of 'aires' which may be anything up to 120 odd miles apart so carrying water in containers internally is not the answer. The number of campsites open all year is also very limited, though Norwegian campsite owners are very flexible and usually very helpful. They often have cabins which are open all year so allowing a motorhome to use the facilities 'out of season' is often accepted.

The most 'reliable' times to see the 'lights' are (in my experience, born out by ongoing Tromso University research) September and February as these are the months with least cloud and more stable weather patterns. I would not fancy taking a Broadway (fully winterised or not) to Finnmark in February as the extremes of temperature are well..................extreme . The lowest I have experienced was -46 with windchill and even our Hagglunds BV 206 was a bit sluggish in those conditions! September temperatures vary but clear skies occur regularly and allow spectacular sightings of the lights so our plan is to get there in late August 2017 and spend the whole of September and the beginning of October there. All my memorable experiences of the lights took place well away from habitation with little or no light pollution. A motorhome is ideally suited to providing a base from which to do this in my view.
It may be worth having a look on You Tube at 'Laika Arctic Experience' conducted in a specially prepared Laika in January and early February. The 35 or so episodes give you an idea of what it's like. (They met a Japanese cyclist near Nordkapp! on, I think, the 28th January, amazing guy)

Coastal Norway is 'warmed' by the Gulf Stream, inland the temperatures can be breathtaking, literally, at anytime from October to March/April.
I'd be interested to hear anything you learn during your planning and am happy to share any knowledge I have or may gain during my research.

Quilter wrote:Thanks all. We do expect bitter weather and will not be on hook up with, probably, a limited water supply so we are keen to ensure we lose as little as possible. Almost 50 years ago, when we started this camping bug, things were so much simpler. Each new van brings new gadgets and " improvements" that add more layers of complexity to the simple lifestyle !

Q

Q, Can't but agree with all you say about things being simpler in the past. My experience to date suggests that the ambient temperature in a van, when occupied and in use, should not cause the dump valve to operate. The heating element seems to be a good idea but apparently only works when the boiler is switched on, strange idea that, like caravanners, we all travel with our tanks empty and only fill up 'on site'. That may well be the case for some but in our case simply not the case, ever, and we have used our vans at all times of the year in UK and the rest of Europe when we lived in Germany. Personally I'm not keen on being 'nannied' to the nth degree but the idea behind the AS auto dump valve has obviously got many adherents. We will continue to use our van at all times as it suits us. Since 1988 and in a wide variety of vans we have never sustained a freeze which caused damage. Enjoy the van, and I still owe you a large quantity of beverage of your choosing!

Bertie, thanks for the heads up on Norway - at the risk of going slightly off topic - my planning is still in the thinking stage but I will happily share my thoughts with you once they are a bit more solid. I will look into those tank heaters you mentioned - which I agree are a vital necessity in such climates. 
We have previously done the Hurtigruten ferry trip in early Feb (it was extremely cold!) but also too much light pollution (from the ship) and an unstable platform did not make for good viewing - hence the yen to try the motor-home route. 
I agree with you that September is a more agreeable month for viewing and indeed likely to be a bit more tolerable for camping from a weather viewpoint.
Liam

Liam wrote:
1. The boiler and safety valve in my van are sited in a self contained, very well ventilated compartment - with nothing near to it (other than water pipes) to provide any secondary insulation of any sort
Liam..........

Ah, it seems that different vans in the same range have their components in different places. In the Stanton the Truma Combi is hidden under a large drawer, under the wardrobe. The dump valve is under the bed locker, next door, alongside the EC500 control unit; so this might not be ideal, unless the under-bed locker is empty and therefore the same temp as the Combi locker. That's why I made the mistaken comment about insulation- we are aiming to keep bedding in there as the floor of the locker is "cluttered" by all the pipe-work and tech units. I'll have to ensure that the air-vents on the EC500 are not obstructed and will probably build a raised shelf to cover the dump valve etc, so that it is a more useable space and the dump valve is not in a Tog 14 duvet!

Cheers,
Pete.

I think that's the problem - they look the same outside but have subtle differences in the build/design. I would not be surprised to see variations between the same models!

Liam

Liam wrote:I think that's the problem - they look the same outside but have subtle differences in the build/design. I would not be surprised to see variations between the same models!

Liam

Hey- just ask A-S where the water pump is fitted on a 2007 Topaz.... they offered me four suggestions; all wrong!

Liam, your benefit # 2 is the trigger to buy a heater me thinks. Our van has been parked unused for the last week and even with a small oil heater on And the bunk open the valve opened. My immediate thought was 'I will have to put the room heater on for a while so I can reset the valve to fill the system with water before we head off this weekend. The heater mod would help. We always travel with about half tank and heat up the tank before we head off so we have a fully useable 'home' when we stop for lunch etc. most of our journeys are 4 hrs plus and I like to stop for a cuppa and walk the dogs every two. Thanks for all the info y'all 

The dump valve on our Broadway opens prematurely in my opinion... 

It says in the manual it operates at +3c but I've experienced it emptying considerably higher than this at +6-7c I have set it frequently over the last few weeks just to test its reliability, and it does seem very reliable and operates well, albeit as already said seems a bit premature / sensitive

Does anyone know where the temperature is measured? Even with the heating on and cosy inside the Broadway it's opened and dumped the water, therefore I'm guessing there must be a temp probe externally?

I believe its some form of a spring bi-metal arrangement within the unit itself - hence the potential problem of trying to manual reset if the core temp of the unit is still below that magic figure +7C and why I have invested in the afore mention Truma Heating Element. Which incidentally they say heats it up to +10C - I believe therein lies the clue - get it above +7C! So its range must be +3 to +7C  which is the typical range of a by-metal unit - hence, IMO, at any temperature below +7C it is must be hovering and in danger of opening! 
If it was controlled via a remote digital sensor then it would be much more accurate (i.e. +- 1 Deg) and potentially programmable! 
Don't forget that it is the core temperature of the unit that triggers it which may be different (lower) to your habitation area temperature - particularly if it is located in a cold locker area as is the case in my van.
That's what I believe - any other theories?
Cheers,
Liam