Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Ever since new the indicator has not been reliable and now shows empty even though it is full. We get warning signal and sounds during the night for no aparant reason saying "NO WATER" I have been told by the workshop that the tank has a set of level probes that must be scaled and that I should use some form of de-scale chemical. I have tried re-setting the onboard information contraption which has not helped. We can get by without this piece of informative equipment but it si so annoying to be woken by something that is so annoying.

The sensors may be the problem but it could errors in the control unit/display. Ours has never been right from new but after we sorted some iffy joints on the Sargent panel pcb
readings on the water level have improved (as did all other readings)

Mutleysdad
What Autosleeper have you got? Your profile doesnt tell us so we dont know what control panel you have.If you could update your profile you may get more help.

Mutleysdad wrote:Ever since new the indicator has not been reliable and now shows empty even though it is full. We get warning signal and sounds during the night for no aparant reason saying "NO WATER" .

Same problem since new (nearly two years ago and then with new clean probes).  All the connections between the tank and the PSU have been re-made and re-insulated.  A new cable has been installed between the control panel and the PSU and the control panel has been replaced.

The problem is that the fault is so nebulous that even with my experience of electronics and 24x7 availability of the van to me I haven't yet bottomed it.  My dealer, AS and Sargent have all been fully supportive but every time they see it  it's working properly.

There are 5 probes on the tank.  With an empty tank, If I connect the bottom one to any of the other 4 it indicates 25%, to any 2 of the others 50%, to any 3 of the others 75% and to all 4 of the others, 100%.  This is how it should work but the conducting element should be the water in the tank.

My recent findings (may be another red herring) are that if I fill the tank at home (near Stoke on Trent) the indications don't work.  I recently attended a rally at Whitby and after a couple of days parked, the indicator started to work and stayed working till I got home - after 2 days I had probably replaced 30 litres of Stoke water with Whitby water.  I drained the tank when I got home and replaced with Stoke water.  Initially the indication worked but after a few hours stopped.

We set off for a few weeks in Europe later today and I will be paying close attention to the indicator performance as water supplies vary.

As previously requested, we need to know what van and what power supply unit you have - my unit is a Sargent EC325.  I suspect that the voltage being applied to the probes is just a smigen too low.  This could be because my van (a Malvern) has a longer wiring loom than others?

Please share you experiences with me but bear in mind I won't be sat in front of the computer for the next few weeks.

Peter

Maybe the 5000 year old spring water from Buxton's natural sources have magical conducting properties Peter.........................

It will be the probes.   I had the same problem on my 2012 Nuevo II.   Marquis fiddled with the sargent box and some contacts, but after advice from Sargent they removed the probes from the tank and replaced them.   They showed me the old probes which were covered in scale and slight corrosion, in spite of being stainless steel.   It is clearly not high quality stainless steel.   The new probes are already showing signs of playing up.   Honestly, they fill these vans with high quality stainless stuff in the bathroom etc, but use rubbish where it really counts!

My waste tank sensors started playing up after the van was 2 weeks old. We put up with it till last week ( van now just 3 months old) and took it back to the dealer
The mechanic dropped the tank and cleaned the probes, it's working perfectly again. He did show me the inside of the tank, which was very grungy. This muck gets on the probes and upsets the reading. The probes are the same as the freshwater ones and any scale on them will also mess up the readings. We live in a very hard water area, so I can expect the freshwater probes to start giving errors soon.
I have seen waste tank cleaner and freshwater tank cleaner. I guess a run through now and again with these should keep things cleaner and working longer, but, the probe system seems a pretty poor way to do things.
I would have thought it would be cheaper and more reliable to fit a float level gauge, especially in the fresh tank, and no reason why it couldn't be the same in the waste tank.
Allan

3 months old and a grungy waste water tank!!!!

ajrm wrote:My waste tank sensors started playing up after the van was 2 weeks old. We put up with it till last week ( van now just 3 months old) and took it back to the dealer
The mechanic dropped the tank and cleaned the probes, it's working perfectly again. He did show me the inside of the tank, which was very grungy. This muck gets on the probes and upsets the reading. The probes are the same as the freshwater ones and any scale on them will also mess up the readings. We live in a very hard water area, so I can expect the freshwater probes to start giving errors soon.
I have seen waste tank cleaner and freshwater tank cleaner. I guess a run through now and again with these should keep things cleaner and working longer, but, the probe system seems a pretty poor way to do things.
I would have thought it would be cheaper and more reliable to fit a float level gauge, especially in the fresh tank, and no reason why it couldn't be the same in the waste tank.
Allan

I am told that my waste tank has a float gauge - result is that Sargent unit shows 0% or 100%    I would stick with the studs which, I think, also give a 50% reading which is more helpful than 100% plus bleeper alone!

I have had an on going problem with the fresh water reading in my Nuevo ES (2008) since I bought it brand new. The float was changed to studs which worked for a while then the readings jumped from 0% to 100% erratically and the alarm going off. Even though I knew the tank was fairly full. Took back to autosleepers who removed the studs and put new ones in- worked for a week - took back only to be told the studs had not been fitted correctly as the solder was touching. This worked for a few months but has now started to play up again with erratic readings. The only way I know its full is by overflowing the tank when filling it !!! not ideal if I go away for a longer time. The control panel has been changed many times but that's another issue. Apart from wanting to cry:all confused:  does the Fresh Water Tank Cleaner Solution Work ??? (Apart from all this I do love my Nuevo). I can't keep taking it back all the time surely or has anyone got any other ideas ??

Further to my earlier post on this subject:

Firstly I never had any problems with water level indications in my 2005 and 2008 vans fitted with the Sargent system.

Over the month in France I noted that it was when the source of freshwater was changed that the fresh water indication either started or stopped working. I also noted that if off hook up, the leisure battery voltage was a factor.

To my mind the circuit voltage with respect to the circuit resistance (cable loom, stud surface area and water conductivity) is marginal in allowing enough current to flow to be detected by the indicator circuit. I think the easiest way to improve this would be to install studs with a greater surface area.

My studs have recently been replaced but as the work was carried out under warranty the studs were as supplied by Sargent. All is working well at the moment but I'm not convinced it will last.

I've not actually seen a stud or what is involved in replacing them but if the problem recurs and I am paying for a fix I would want larger studs but obviously can't say whether that would actually solve the problem.

I have never put anything but fresh water in my freshwater tanks and would not contemplate doing so.

Peter

On my old Hymer the panel was made by Schaudt, a German firm.  Both the fresh and waste water tanks were fitted with probes which were two rods mounted on a plate that was held in the top of the tank by a screw cap.  The probes reached to the bottom of the tank and, as I recall, had four sections and as the water covered each break so the gauge (analogue meter in this case) went from empty to 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and Full. That probe system never failed me in 10 years.
In writing this I have gone back to my records of the Hymer where I found a Schaudt catalogue from 2006 in pdf form.  It has pictures and part numbers of slightly different design probes with 5 rods of different lengths but, MORE IMPORTANTLY, it also has the stud sytem illustrated - viz


I doubt whether the rod system is compatible with the Sargent but the studs obviously are and are obtainable in the UK at £4 each plus P&P
http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/stock-list.php

If my studs go then I will replace with good german ones!  And I may well add a 50% reading to my waste tank - I think that the wiring may be there ready for an extra stud. Darn it, just remembered that my 100% level on the waste is a float switch, not a stud!

The studs in Ron's post look from the 'outside view' just like the AS ones. Has anyone seen one of the AS ones outside a tank to comment on similarity?

Peter

I intend to take the waste water tank off my 2010 broadway in the near future to fix an outlet pipe to the off side of the vehicle.
If anyone has questions they want me to look into whilst the tank is off i.e. re. the level indicator, then I shall do so.

Also, I agree with an earlier post that the Sargent ec325 system I have, which only indicates 0% or 100% full, is pretty useless. I shall therefore be looking into some means of having a 50% or 75% full indication also.

I always aim to keep the grey water tank empty and, ideally, ventilated to prevent anything settling that could start smelling. I therefore drain the tank every day or two, using a bucket at the same time as I top up the fresh water with my watering can.

The waste water indication is therefore superfluous to me.

There is a 50% input facility on the Sargent but the float installed by AS only indicates 100% - as does the water backing up into the shower tray, I have tested the indications!!

The annoying thing is that if the float sticks up as can be caused by crossing a big bump in the road then the alarm sounds whenever the pump is on - a bit of an annoyance. If I ever have trouble with the waste level indication causing persistent alarms I will disconnect it.

Peter

Peter,
You say there is a 50% i/p on the EC325 for waste water level.
I can see it says this in the documentation, but do you have any further details - i.e. do you have a wiring diagram or do you know which input terminal on the unit is used. Also, is there already a spare wire in the loom to take the signal?

I am assuming that the current 100% sensor is a float switch and will therefore be using a discreet input and will be sending an on/off signal.
Therefore if I install a second float switch, it will need a separate signal lead and separate input to the EC325.
I could set the second float switch to say the 80% full level in the tank - irrespective of the fact that the display panel would say 50%.

Agreed?

Waste Water

Water level in the waste water tank
(2 measurement levels)
If the water pump power switch is
turned ON and the waste water
level rises to 100% a warning beep
will be heard and the LCD display
will flash. To cancel the warning,
press the select (.) button. The
warning will not be repeated unless
the water pump power switch is
turned off and on again. This is to
ensure the warning does not
become a nuisance.

0% < ½ Full
50% >= ½ Full (optional level
that is not normally fitted by
most manufacturers)
100% = Full

Above is a (rather crude) extract from the EC325 User manual.

http://sargentshop.co.uk/epages/eshop328964.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/eshop328964/Categories/Self_Help/EC225__EC325_Power_Control_System

Sargent make the wiring looms model specific to AS requirements so I think it extremely unlikely that the input goes further than the connector on the bottom of the psu.

I'm sure Sargent would tell you the connector and pin and I'm sure it is possible to run wires and add a float or sensor but personally I can't see the benefit - however if you do do something please let us know.

Peter

I don't know if this may be of some use to anyone but having experienced the same problems with the water level indication I have now fitted an extra earth wire from the bottom stud on the fresh water tank directly to the vehicle chassis. So far this has fixed the problem for us.

DeeGee7 wrote:I don't know if this may be of some use to anyone but having experienced the same problems with the water level indication I have now fitted an extra earth wire from the bottom stud on the fresh water tank directly to the vehicle chassis. So far this has fixed the problem for us.

That certainly fits in with my theory as to why there is a problem. I had not thought of the possibility that the reference wire is at earth potential in the PSU but if it is, your solution to reduce the resistance in that part of the circuit is a real brainwave. Please let us know if it goes wrong again and if mine starts to play up again I will investigate whether your fix would work for me.

Thanks

Peter

Autosleeper fitted the extra earth wire on my Nuevo from the bottom stud to the chassis and it worked fine for a few months but now it has gone back to telling me there is no water and that annoying alarm bleeping at me, albeit I have disabled the sound. I still see a red screen.
I am going to try the Elsan Fresh Water Tank clean to see if it descales the inside and hopefully the studs..... Think a dipstick might be better but then I would have to crawl under the tank !!!!!!!!!!! Can't believe how stupid this problem is.
Other than that a trip back to AS again may be necessary.

Peter Brown wrote:Waste Water

Water level in the waste water tank
(2 measurement levels)
If the water pump power switch is
turned ON and the waste water
level rises to 100% a warning beep
will be heard and the LCD display
will flash. To cancel the warning,
press the select (.) button. The
warning will not be repeated unless
the water pump power switch is
turned off and on again. This is to
ensure the warning does not
become a nuisance.

0% < ½ Full
50% >= ½ Full (optional level
that is not normally fitted by
most manufacturers)
100% = Full

Above is a (rather crude) extract from the EC325 User manual.

http://sargentshop.co.uk/epages/eshop328964.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/eshop328964/Categories/Self_Help/EC225__EC325_Power_Control_System

Sargent make the wiring looms model specific to AS requirements so I think it extremely unlikely that the input goes further than the connector on the bottom of the psu.

I'm sure Sargent would tell you the connector and pin and I'm sure it is possible to run wires and add a float or sensor but personally I can't see the benefit - however if you do do something please let us know.

Peter

I cannot be certain but I think that the cable that goes to my waste tank has 3 wires with one not connected. I need to get underneath to check! If so then shorting the unused cable to the ground of the other two should presumably give the 50% reading?

Reading this thread ,i am glad i have an old Symphony.I can select any water level i want on the panel. 
i know it is iffy ,but i never have run out of water. 

regards

Mike

  
Fixed it. 
After speaking to AS who said there was nothing more they could do for me !!.. I purchased some Truma Aqua Star 1+2 and ran it thru my system as per instructions, in order to descale any residue on the sensors. I also rebooted by touch screen panel.

Have emptied and refilled the system a few times and the water level readings are perfect...
So in future if I start getting any iffy readings I will run this solution thru.

Fingers crossed it keeps working albeit I am going to empty it out now for winter.

Hope this might be of use to anyone with similar probs.

Carol.

http://www.truma.com/uk/en/water-systems/operating-video-aquastar.php

I was not aware of this product but having every confidence in the company and having viewed the video at the link above I would.

I have a Nature Pure filter installed so would not need '3' but 1+2 will be used if I have further problems with the level indications.

Peter

I have a roughly 10 year old Duetto and a very unreliable fresh water level indicator that currently only registers empty. Having looked at the probes in the tank they are as clean as a whistle (I live in a soft water area). I intend to electrically test what's happening at the gauge end next when I have a moment. Given the regularity with which contributors to this forum have experienced reliability problems with the level indicator, surely proper attention must have been directed to this at AS??? If so, can it now be updated with something reliable, or does anyone know of an alternative on the market that perhaps works on the same principle as a fuel gauge???
Steve