Solar Panel/Sargent EC328/12V Electrics Fault

Hi Bros

Did you see my post re interference bottom page 1?

Peter

Hi Brod

When I was first investigating this problem I had interference as a possible cause. In fact I thought it could have been induced into the control panel. However, looking at the system as a whole there are many possible EMC interference possibilities. Including the length of the wiring to the control panel, the proximity of the solar control module to the psu electronics and also how this module is actually mounted, would be high on my list.

However, my hope is that it is the solar control panel itself is at fault........otherwise it could well be a system design issue which may not be so easy to resolve.

Who needs energy from the sun anyway  

Best regards, John

On a site at Lake Garda talking to a fellow ASOC member about his tyre valve failure en-route and got on to the subject of Electro Magnetic Interference.......? I said I could write a book on that subject-he said "I have - several" and he had!!!

Peter

Was his name Faraday  

No and without his consent I would not name him but he is a Professor and celebrated his 80th birthday at the 2009 Rudesheim rally.

Peter

Thank you everybody for your recent posts.

I note in particular that Johns problems have disappeared once the solar panel has been disconnected and additionally where the solar panel is covered as per Peters suggestion .

I note the comments on EMC but issues in this area of way beyond my knowledge to comprehend. Let us just hope the solution is a little more simple.

I hope when the new solar panel controller is fitted to Johns van everything works as it should. If that is the case I will probably ask Sargent to replace the one that is fitted on the EC328 exchange unit that they recently provided me with.

However I have to say that my own suspicion is that the solar panel controller is not the source of the problem on its own. I have had 2 different types fitted to my van and similar symptoms with each. I suspect that something else in the electronics within the EC328 is not shutting off the input from the solar panel when it is providing too much juice especially in sunny conditions when the batteries are already well charged.

Anyway I will probably reconnect my solar panel tomorrow (duly covered along the lines of Peter Brown's earlier posting) to see if the symptoms disappear as per Johns experience.

All of this is rather frustrating particularly as we are enjoying ideal solar panel weather.

I will keep you all abreast of developments

With a fiercely strong sun at present I decided that it would not be prudent to reconnect my solar panel at the moment given the fact that in less severe  conditions it has been malfunctioning when working in conjunction with the Sargeant EC328 system.

I think I will just now wait until John posts whether his similar problems disappear when he fits the new internal dual solar controller that is wending its way from Marquis/Sargent.

Michael

Hi Michael

Slight delay as Sargent sent the wrong controller. Hope to have the correct one later this week.

I'll let you know when it's installed.

Regards, John

I post below in blue the latest communication that I have received from Craig Foot at Sargent which is really self-explanatory.


Apparently the relevant software is in the control panel that displays all the system values rather than the EC328 box itself.


It would seem John that if you fit the replacement dual solar panel controller that is on its way from Marquis and I fit the new control panel that is coming to me direct from Sargent and we compare the results from both those replacements we are likely to have a good idea as to the source of the mutual problem.


Good Afternoon Michael,
 
We have been looking into this and had our software people look at the control panel for the over-voltage logic.
 
We feel that the control panel may have been picking up slight voltage increases from certain solar panels and forcing the cut out, A modification has been made to the software to increase the delay in cutting out in order to deal with short term voltage spikes.
 
We also noticed a possibility that the pump may remain on during the cut out, which would explain some of your findings, this has also going to be modified.
 
Due to this I think sending out a replacement control panel may overcome your issue.
 
I will despatch one as soon as possible,
 
I hope you are happy with this solution.
 
Regards,
Craig Foot
Technical Support Specialist
Sargent Electrical Services Ltd

Michael

Coincidently I have just received a call from Marquis explaining exactly the same as shown in your post.

A control panel with the updated software is on it's way to me and hopefully will arrive tomorrow. 

To me this is good news as the control panel is easier to change over. Although they are not 100% certain this will fix the problem it does make sense to me as I had originally had the control panel software as a possible cause.

I'll keep you posted.

Fingers crossed once again.........

Regards, John

All duly noted John. I suspect you will manage to have your new control panel fitted and tested before me. I will therefore be watching out for your next posting with considerable interest.

Michael

Hi John and others following these posts.

Please find below in blue latest email from Craig Foot of Sargent which strongly indicates that they have cracked it.

However so as to not tempt fate I will suspend final judgement until the replacement control panel with updated software is received, fitted, and tested.

Regards,

Michael


Good Morning Michael,
 
Over the course of yesterday afternoon and this morning I have been able to simulate the issue you were experiencing, The system power shutting down but the pump light remaining on with solar input voltage connected.
 
It seems the solar regulator for a very split second was jumping above the 15V mark and forcing the system shutdown, This is not a fault with the regulator but more the way it operates in terms of regulating the output. As I mentioned yesterday, the new software has been set to extend the delay before the cut-out to allow for these very small spikes in voltage.
 
With the new software version panel fitted, I have not managed to simulate the issue.
 
My conclusion from this is that the new software version for the control panel has resolved this issue and once you receive and install the new control panel I have sent you I would hope you see the same results. Please do update me once everything is installed.
 
I hope we have now resolved this issue, Thank you for your patience on this matter, and for your help in terms of your testing and detailed emails which has helped us reach a resolution on this.
 
Regards,
Craig Foot
Technical Support Specialist
Sargent Electrical Services Ltd

sounds very promising 

Unfortunately it would seem to mean that everyone with an existing EC328 can expect the unit not to work properly if they connect a solar panel to it!

As far as I know there is no way for an owner to upgrade the firmware themselves, which ~seems~ to mean that we would all have to return our units to Sargent to be firmware updated before we could connect a solar panel.

However, if these voltage spikes really are short, transient events then it occurs to me that adding just a single component (for example a capacitor across the regulator output) could eliminate the problem. I'm not aware of the exact nature of the connection between the solar controller and the rest of the EC328 but if, for example, the regulator has screw connector blocks, then adding a capacitor across the output terminals ~could~ be a relatively trivial thing to do.

Is this something that could be raised with Craig?

I appreciate that some people may be a little uncomfortable about adding components to the unit, but when you consider the alternative of having to replace it completely (or wait while your own EC328 is updated), that may be the lesser of two evils to some...

This is all very interesting, I have just purchased a solarsun 100w panel and adapter from sargent and about to fit it direct to my EC328, should I just do it and give it a go or what do you suggest I do please? Thanks.
David

I do not think mojo that the problems that John and I are experiencing are widespread otherwise others would have posted to advise that they have had similar malfunctions.

In any case Craig Foot mentions in one of the earlier emails that I posted that the problems only affects certain solar panels.

My own view is that if you are thinking of fitting a solar panel using the EC328 then I would just go ahead in the expectation that problems will not necessarily be encountered.

If that turns out not to be the case then my experience is that Sargent will address any issues and do their very best to find a solution.

I cannot speak for Sargent but my expectation based on my own experience would be that if the control panel needs more up-to-date software then an exchange unit would be offered.

The other approach that you outline may be an alternative way forward but I do not have the technical knowledge to be able to discuss it with Craig.

Can I suggest however that we see if the new control panel with up-to-date software works for me and then explore other options depending upon the outcome.

Michael

Michael 

I received the new control panel this afternoon. Changing over is very straightforward.

I installed the updated control panel at 3 pm today. I let the system run in bright sunshine until about 8 pm without being connected to the mains. I then plugged into 240 volts. So far, no failures. 

It will be interesting to see how it goes tomorrow.

The only observation so far is that the charging current with and without mains seems a bit erratic. I'm not sure if this is significant.
 
I think 2 or 3 days of testing is probably required.

Regards, John

John,

That all sounds very good and what I was hoping to hear.

My updated control panel has also arrived but as I have plans for the weekend I will not fit it until early next week.

In the meanwhile I look forward to further postings from you indicating how the long-term roadtest is going.

Michael

-mojo- wrote:

However, if these voltage spikes really are short, transient events then it occurs to me that adding just a single component (for example a capacitor across the regulator output) could eliminate the problem. I'm not aware of the exact nature of the connection between the solar controller and the rest of the EC328 but if, for example, the regulator has screw connector blocks, then adding a capacitor across the output terminals ~could~ be a relatively trivial thing to do.

Its still early days in confirming the resolution of this problem.  The battery being charged has massive capacitance and should absorb any voltage spikes that pass through the regulator.

I can understand satellite solar panels being sensitive to solar flares etc but down on the ground I can't perceive conditions (other than lightning) that will generate a voltage variation that could be termed a spike.

I have noted that it is not uncommon to have problems with domestic solar panel systems caused by spikes on the electricity grid system interfering with the control software in inverters and our 328 problem seems similar.

The panel is a grid of wires on the roof - an aerial - and different sizes/type of construction of panel will be 'tuned' to different frequencies which, when received, will be transmitted via the cabling to the controller and may be interpreted as DC voltage spikes.  It may well be that the software tweak to the controller operates as a work round to stop this interference causing a problem but does not remove it.

It would still be really interesting to hear if looping the down lead from the solar panel round a ferrite ring just before the connection to the power supply unit also eliminates the fault.

Peter

Michael, Peter and all who have been following this discussion,

I installed the updated panel on Friday and so far there have been no failures.

The only thing I have noticed is that the charging current is more erratic. However, Sargent tell me this is to be expected as the updated software now shows real time current changes whereas before it did tend to be 'blurred' out as the display changed so rapidly.

I'm away for a week or so so will have a chance to try out the system longer term.

Michael, I hope your installation goes well.

Regards, John

John,

That all sounds good.

I will now go ahead and fit my replacement control panel and then reconnect my 

solar panel in the confident expectation that everything should now work correctly.

Will post outcome mid week.

Regards

Michael

Hi John and Peter,

Replacement Sargent EC328 Control Panel fitted this afternoon and solar panel reconnected.
 
As expected previously described faults appear to have been rectified.

I will post a full report after a weekend away in in this glorious weather.

Regards,

Michael

That is great news, having my panel fitted next week so hope it works!!

Hi John, Peter, and others,

A weekend in a very hot Lake District allowed for a full testing of the replacement EC328 Control Panel and the new software recently written by Sargent to prevent the solar panel tripping off the 12v van electrics especially in sunny conditions with nearly fully charged batteries.

Not one malfunction was observed and furthermore when on mains electric everything functioned exactly as it should.

Throughout this rather long saga the customer service from Sargent and their Craig Foot has been exemplary. Despite the fact that my EC328 is out of the guarantee period I have been supplied with a full replacement unit and control panel without charge or even carriage costs in either direction.

Emails have been answered almost immediately upon receipt and significant amounts of staff time have self-evidently been spent in getting to the bottom of the problems and rewriting the software.

All in all a company that I can thoroughly recommend to other motor caravanners and an example to others in the industry.

I hope groundhog that all goes well with the fitting of your solar panel this week .

Regards,

Michael

Thanks to you and Silver for your persistence on this. I suspect that most people would have given up and just accepted that it was "one of those things that happens".  It's been a great help to those EC328 owners like me considering fitting a panel.

And also, as you say, it's a credit to Sargent and their support staff.